Just because you're a slight equity favorite doesn't necessarily make donking the flop the best play. If you were a 99% favorite and villain would just folds every flop except the one time you're beat then it would lose a ton of value

You're just repeating that because we're a slight equity we should donk 100%. Other are saying that slight equity lead is made up for by tge fact that villain has position and you're allowing him to fold out his garbage for free and then raise you when he's actually equity favorite

Every time you 3b out of the SB, you're OOP and a small equity favorite. You're saying you don't cbet the majority of those times? I've also explained that more of PFR's equity is tied to SDV, giving more reason to bet more.

Your second analogy makes no sense. If we check most of the time, PFR gets to choose when to check back with junk and when to bet with strength. That's a product of being IP. We want PFR to fold his garbage -- the alternative is to give him a free card with garbage.

You seem overly worried about letting someone hit at best a six outer in a 2 bet pot in a spot where most good players will bet garbage precisely for the reason that they can't win it if they don't. It's not like the guy with 89s is just going to check the flop and surrender

There's also a pretty huge difference between a sb 3bet range and a big blind defense range. Cbetting is much easier because the pot is bigger and your range can stand up to more pressure

Speaking of pressure: Bb has an equity advantage. His range has tonnes more 3 4 5 6 7 x in it. These are all hands that can stand pressure and get to a river. PFR range will have a lot of
9-A hands that can't stand pressure and will have to fold before river. But only if we put pressure on him. Yes, I am very concerned with wiping out PFRs 6 out equity, not to mention his khi AHi equity.

Pfish: let's assume we defend roughly 60% bb and we get the 234 flop and donk 100% of our range...assuming we would not fold any gutter, pair or ace on the turn we would still be check folding 40% of our range when we don't turn a 6 outer.

Now like ZOMG said good villians are gonna peel 100% of flops, they are gonna bet basically any time you check since you have Q-10 here, your going to check fold 40% of he time and the other 60% of the time they can play perfect vs you as it's easy to know which hands are an equity favorite on the turn vs your entire bb defense range. And you basically end up getting murdered

You also previously mentioned how equity advantage doesn't mean anything if all worse hands fold and better hands call/raise.

This is the exact opposite situation. This flop is low coordinated. Equity shifts very easily after each street. On AHi dry flops, sure, we'd want to check back ~53% equity -- keeps villains range wide and less need for protection. Doesn't apply here.

Not all. Just the worst you let off for free and the best get to make the pot bigger, when they want to. I agree that there's a lot of merit to all the murky stuff in the middle but I think it's much better suited to use against average or bad players who aren't going to adjust properly or be comfortable calling down thin. I think good players are going to kick you in the teeth at both ends and just play the "who has the most equity" game with everything else. It's not going to take more than the third hand for the good player to figure out you're donking at least close to 100% on these board at he's just going to stove in his brain and because we've all done it so many times he's going to come pretty close. But now he just gets off free on the worst parts of his range and gets to control the pot size better with the best parts of his range

And like I said earlier I think this strategy would work a lot better if it was a donk 100% some X%

Yup and then after he folds his worst hands he probably reverts back to being the favorite range vs range.

Why would you change the flop. 456 is very different from 234. On 234, Ax basically always gets to river, and PFR's range is heavy in Ax. The defending range is not an equity favorite on 234.

If Villain does peel 100%, life is easier for hero, and Hero should 100% be cbetting and get money in good. On the turn, we continue to play poker. Nowhere in any of my posts have I said "play your hand faceup on the turn by always and only checking back weak hands" or "completely butcher the turn". If you add that stipulation, of course they're going to play perfectly against us. That's moot and has nothing to do with whether a flop donk is the correct play.

If PFR folds his worst hands, then BB has already gained a lot of equity. Its a win for BB.

Even on the 4-5-6 flop of we lead flop 100% we have 250
Combos of hands on the turns that's just plain nothing (if we don't improve) But thankfully, play poker on the turn is the easy solution for this.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what "gained a lot of equity" means. I don't think you're gaining much, if anything when your opponent folds a bad hand like J9o. Then when he calls, his range is strengthened and you gotta play the rest of the hand out of position as the underdog range vs range. If I may make an analogy, this is like winning a pawn in chess and immediately bringing out your Queen because you think you have this huge advantage when you really don't and you **** up your whole position by doing so.

88 should check back flop.

A3 should continue to bluff catch on turn.

tough hand for me to get involved in a discussion with b/c i would play the a3 differently on the flop. it'd be k/r>b>k/c. so this player's action from the bb would be the one i'd be least likely to take (small %). and when i do take it, it's usually to k/r the turn, not to donk it. i'll admit then that i have an unbalanced turn range since i'm really not donking anything after k/c'ing the flop. for me, k/c, k/r is easier to balance and to play imo but i can be wrong here so i'm interested in reading more here.

Thinking about this hand for a couple days I think I like the way BB played it.

I know BB was DeathDonkey so my opinion might be biased but as long as you're keeping the turn donk hand range consistent which is not easy to do but I imagine you are able to do it.

I'm a TAG fish though so I probably chk/call flop, turn, river since this is a common board where many TAG fish preflop raiser continuation bets flop, turn, river with AT+ unimproved. I mix in the flop c/r based on the history with the opponent but generally chk/cal flop and chk/call turn. River depends on the player because some players are nits at value betting rivers live and their hand range is very narrow.

I was CO actually. Bb was ILikeRocks, I think her play is good and I should have checked flop and bet river.

What is your goal for CR flop? On this board you will have tons of straight draws I think you should consider how weak your range is if you CR all of them.

I really don't get why you would check the flop. Great flop for your hand, you probably have a big equity advantage. You think this opponent is so good that you should have balanced by checking because the flop is better for her range than yours?

My apologies, I just skimmed the thread and must have read the results incorrectly.

As played, I think I would have bet the river but I value bet too light when I'm chked to on the river. I think it depends on the player but getting information for what ILR/villain donked the turn with might be more valuable than betting the river.

Tough to say since I'm sure there's nonzero chance ILR/villain will c/r with worse on the river and bet/calling that river with 88 seems pretty bad and tough to do in real time.

I would have continuation bet the flop with 88, called the turn, and value bet the river when chked to. I understand keeping a balanced range as the pfr is important so you have some portion of strongest hand range and weakest hand range on the flop to chk with. However, 88 has a major equity advantage on the flop but there are many run outs where we can't raise the turn or river comfortably and I would rather bet the flop with 88 and chk the flop with strong hand ranges that can raise more turn/river cards comfortably.

i agree that you should check the flop and i agree that ILR's play was good, i just think that she should choose a different hand with which to make this play. like A5.

yes.

The more I think about this the more I'm inclined to agree, mostly because if we take this line with A3 on this flop our call down range ends up pairless.

Right. as well as now he has more worse hands to call with. I mean, not many more, but a couple.

true. but not every one is being k/r'd. some are being played more passively. and a large portion of the straight draws also contain a pair (which are more likely to be k/r'd). this one has an ace as well, which does great against the overall open/cbet flop range.

i'im not sure i see why we want to check this flop w/ 88 though (in CO's spot)? that seems very bad at first glance though maybe i'm missing something?

It's a range protection thing. It's a flop we shouldn't c-bet a lot so we can check a strong hand and raise many turns.