Both players here are good 2p2 people and very familiar w how each other play, one of them is me.

CO opens with 88 and BB defends w A3o. HU to the flop.

456r
BB checks, CO bets, BB calls.

Turn 3
BB donks, CO calls.

River Q
check, check.

Thoughts?

Is it crazy to just not defend blind with A3? Even if the cutoff has a wide opening range here A3 has very few good flops, reverse implied odds are bad and you have to play out of position against a good player.

I don't think player B can win this pot in this situation. Cutoff won't fold if A bets or CR flop and barrels. If A check calls then check raises turn I still think player A will call turn and crying call river. Also from B's perspective once he makes a pair he if he raises it's in hopes of A folding exactly a med pair, but if these two players have played a lot of limit Holdem together they're probably pretty showdown bound as their egos can stomach losing a couple bets but being outplayed by their rival would be unbearable. Just saying if I'm B I don't expect this opponent to fold a pair.

From A's perspective once he gets past the turn without being raised he should feel pretty good about betting the river. I would assume that B has 1 pair type hand that he'll payoff.

I think player b's line is straight forward

On the flop a3 has a draw and showdown
On the turn a3 has a draw to half and showdown
On the river I'm not sure if a3 should call or fold


Player a's line I think is trickier to play as this is probably one of the worst flops for player a's range.

I'm not sure what the best way is to play player a's range but since 88 beats any k/r hands, has 6 outs to improve against better hands, and is a favorite, I'd Cbet the flop.

Turn I think is definitely the trickiest as many assumptions can be made on both players tendencies.

Eg) flop cbets are pretty polarized in my experience. As player b I might delay a straight as I'd expect a double barrel. As player a, I might expect player b to donk that turn, etc

I guess it's very hard for either player to have a deuce either.

I'd probably fire the river for value and call a raise as player a. I don't think player b has any k/r river range and if I get raised I'd assume bluff.

Bah I screwed up the post. On the turn the BB donked and the cutoff called.


*OP NOW EDITED FOR CLARITY on 1-18. -BBB*

player B's turn line is probably a well-thought-out tactic. It folds out bluffs (which all has 6 or 10 outs for the whole pot and 8 outs for half). I'm not sure if that is better than allowing player A to triple barrel bluff, but it does has its advantages.

It makes river decision very easy as a turn call by player A likely means a3o is beat. I'm assuming player B is going to k/f the river with a3o.

The only adjustment I can think of for player A is to still value bet river and to balance that with peeling non-pairs on the turn to b/f river against this line. I'm not sure what candidates that would be though since a lot of those hands probably checks back the flop or has showdown against total air.

If I'm player A, the BB's donk plus the board runnout is making me pretty wary. On the other hand, I can't really imagine BB, donk chk calling the turn with much that beats 88. The turn card is just so good for his donking range... So I guess I think player A should value bet the river although it seems pretty thin.

I don't like the turn donk. I feel like you get called or raised by better hands, but don't get a lot of value from worse hands. I'm not really sure if the bet is supposed to be bluffing A off a better hand or getting value/protection from worse hands that would check back. But either way I'd prefer a check call here.

I'd be a bit confused if I was player A on river but I'd value bet, because I don't think many hands that beat me would have checked the river. I'd also probably call a check raise just because the line would be pretty weird and I'd be too confused to fold.

OTR, I think player B donked the turn. From your reply I think you think he donked the flop?

Does B have a donk range [on this flop]? Does A have a donk-check range [on this flop]? The answer to both should be yes, but even 'good' players take shortcuts. Moreover, if either of these is a yes, does the other player realise it? This will greatly influence how to look at the hand.

I think B should be donking a lot on this flop. Well over 50%. This is backed by stoves which say an 85% range is a slight favorite over a 40% range on this flop. A has more equity tied to SDV, so I don't even think its crazy for B to donk 100% given ranges and texture.

Adapting for live reads changes everything.

I think it's a pretty interesting spot for 88 on River. At first I thought it was a fairly easy value bet but I think BB should be check folding a decent portion of his range here on the river (I run check fold urn with A3 also).

The fact that cutoff def has a check back range on this flop makes his range pretty value heavy when he both bets this flop and calls the turn Donk. So unless the few times he decides to bluff A8 type hands, A3 can safely fold.

So if BB is folding some pairs and check raises )or donks most pairs on flips his range is going to be very weighted towards very weak hands that can't call a river bet or hands looming to check raise.

When he takes this flop like and leads turn ins sully think his malt likely hand is a straight and check raising oesd prob not slam dunk on flop given cut offs strong range when he bets this board texture. So if BB range is mostly straight and weak hands hat went for the desperation turn bluff, there's not much value to be had in betting 88 on River. Always interesting threads where I come to post easy bet and by the time I'm done typing decide it's a check.

I agree with you on these questions if the hand were played by 2 random players, but to ask these about good players leads me to guess you have to play in some super soft games. How could DD or whomever possibly not be aware that cutoff has a check back range and also. E aware than BB will
Know this and lead some flops. To be fair that may be true of a lot of games, but very not true for very good plahers

Does B realise he should be donking 75%+ because his range is ahead? Does A know this? Do most posters here realise this?

Expert opens the cutoff, do you defend BB with T-3o? Did you know that BB range on this flop actually improves as you increase his defense range to include lots of hand he doesn't have in his range.

If I'm BB I CR the flop. This board smashes his range and actually makes the turn lead more believable IMO.

The definition of insanity is "doing the same thing but expecting a different result".

Just to expand upon this, let's assume BB defends 10-7o but folds 10-6o and worse when very good cutoff opens. Maybe the fence is +/- 1 hand but I think this is reasonable. Now when you add hands to that range for an 85% defending range the only 10x hands you add are 10-6o, 10-5o, 10-4o and 10-3o. Of course this will help BB on the 4-5-6 flop. Same with J3o through J-6o and etc.


In fact, the entire subset of hands that BB folds preflop that you shave added to his range is a 3-2 favorite cd cut offs range

for limit holdem folding any ace in the big blind vs a cutoff open would be a large mistake. my no limit game is super rusty but i think it might be a fold there.

welcome to the forum!

40% co open range (that's like borderline maniac)
85% bb defense range (that's almost as wide as my huhu defense range)

75% bb donk range on 456r (I understand bb is a 52.6% equity favorite if I plug your percentages into stove but even then 75% donk??)

How the hell do you get these numbers? I don't know what the numbers should be, but these sound very off.

40% CO seems too loose and 85% BB even more so

your 52.6% equity advantage is in ballpark I think

75% donk flop is way too much. All the 109/J10/J9/Q9/Q10/QJ/K9/K10/KJ/KQ combos can't really donk here and plenty of value combos can x/r. For ex. if BB had 88 it's a xr instead of donk partly bc we don't block his A4/A5/A6/K6ss combos. I'd imagine that CO will still cbet most of the time, despite having a robust check back range on this flop.

My first thoughts were that BB was donk bluffing a turn that was good for his range and decided to give up on the river. This is cheaper than xr bluffing and there is no guarantee CO would bet the turn. I'd have to guess that DD was in the big blind and OTR was CO and didn't see much value in betting river, thinking he was usually up against either DD's xf range or a screwplay xr that beats 88. But that's just a guess.

Definitely a fold in NL.
Even if ahead pretty tough to realize its equity and if you do it will be a small pot you win or a big pot you loose, lot RIO stuff.
And it does cost more pf on top of it.

What range% do you suggest? At 35% for CO, BB should defend ~75%. BB is still an equity favorite here. If you're an equity favorite, and both players know it, you should be betting most of the time. This gets said all the time; we 3b pre, get it heads up; we're an equity favorite, so we cbet ~100%. Same principle would apply here except the defender having the stronger range. It's a little bit mind blowing, even to me.

I say 75%+ to leave leeway in case we want to "develop a balanced flop-check range" even though we are ahead range v range.

sweet! however, the definition of insanity has nothing to do with my post. i was responding to the OP where the post flop action goes:
B x/c's the flop
B x/c's the turn
B checks, A checks river

had this been the way the hand actually played out, i would bet the river for value if i'm player A. DD came in a few posts after mine and changed the post flop action. i've yet to respond. so i'm not sure what you're trying to get across in your post.

Good discussion I don't want to mess up but just one thing...the BB is not bluffing on the turn!