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Another bluff Another bluff

06-13-2015 , 06:02 AM
Sorry for the clutter, I think this would be better in my other thread but I guess we are supposed to start new threads for new hands:

Q8ss BB

rec lag limps CO (very weak range), loose passive raises button, we both call.

It was suggested I start playing my bluffs like I play my value hands (fast). This is how I play 6x+ and flush draws (some of the time):

Flop JcJs6c

Chk/chk/bet/hero raises, lag folds, lp calls

Turn 3d

Hero bets
06-13-2015 , 06:20 AM
Why did you choose this hand to bluff with?
06-13-2015 , 07:41 AM
Because I had a BDFD and two overs.

More generally why I bluffed here: because I knew lag had air and because lp folds too much to me on the big streets (forgot to mention this). He's not folding 77+ here but he's folding most everything below it on the turn or river and his range has a lot of stuff worse than 77 in it.

Spoiler:
but mostly because I wanted to try fastplaying a bluff
06-13-2015 , 08:43 AM
If your read is right this is fine and it almost doesn't matter what you have.
06-13-2015 , 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
If your read is right this is fine and it almost doesn't matter what you have.
I agree except to add that it doesn't matter what you have, unless that hand can earn more by check calling.

Quote:
his range has a lot of stuff worse than 77 in it.
I'm not getting the "loose passive" feel from this guy, especially if he's folding 55 to a turn or river bet.
06-13-2015 , 10:15 AM
If this is how you play 6x+ and flush draws and now add air to that range as well what do you think your distribution looks like on the turn?

I actually think this is a reasonable hand and flop to bluff with but I actually would prefer to do it on JJ6 rainbow flip instead, not on this one.
06-13-2015 , 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
I'm not getting the "loose passive" feel from this guy, especially if he's folding 55 to a turn or river bet.
'loose passive who folds to me too much on the big streets' is fine for our purposes. we have a lot of history and like most players, you can't describe 100% of his play in two words.
06-13-2015 , 01:10 PM
What do you think loose-passives raise with?
06-13-2015 , 01:31 PM
If the guy's really folding 55- to this line, then should we really check raise the flop with 6x? I don't think so.
06-13-2015 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke
If this is how you play 6x+ and flush draws and now add air to that range as well what do you think your distribution looks like on the turn?
I'm not really sure what you're asking but I presume it would depend a lot on how much air. Like, I'm not raising all of my air on that flop. Only some of it, some of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
What do you think loose-passives raise with?
That's an extremely broad question so I'm going to rephrase it to apply to this situation: what do I think this guy would raise in this situation.

I really don't know. I've played with him a long time and I don't know that. He definitely has a limping range there, that's for sure. But he might limp ****ing AK there sometimes. Or he could show up with 44 when he raised.

At game speed I kinda just assigned him a TAG range in my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148
If the guy's really folding 55- to this line, then should we really check raise the flop with 6x? I don't think so.
He would fold a lot of that on the river, though. He'll call the flop with King hi and probably a turn bet. So we extract value from a lot of his range by raising and betting turn...rather than calling and watching him check back turn.
06-13-2015 , 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pincus
I'm not really sure what you're asking but I presume it would depend a lot on how much air. Like, I'm not raising all of my air on that flop. Only some of it, some of the time.

.
If you raise air on this turn sown times, what % of your range is value hands, and what % is bluffs (flush draws and air sometimes).

When you can answer this you will probably see why K-high is unlikely to fold to you
06-13-2015 , 04:46 PM
If this Villain detects and properly adjusts to the additional air in my range then I can make further adjustments. That seems unlikely. I can't recall him ever looking anybody up with K hi...
06-13-2015 , 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pincus
If this Villain detects and properly adjusts to the additional air in my range then I can make further adjustments. That seems unlikely. I can't recall him ever looking anybody up with K hi...
Then what's the point of the thread, like OTR said if the read is correct it doesn't matter what you have, and nobody can give you any advise better than your read....

If your read is wrong and the opponent is good, your bluff is bad bad will get called down by king hi, but you said that's unlikely or doesn't matter because you will adjust.

So I'm confused, what comments your looking for.
06-13-2015 , 07:34 PM
Quote:
If your read is wrong and the opponent is good, your bluff is bad bad will get called down by king h
I agree.

Quote:
Then what's the point of the thread
Quote:
So I'm confused, what comments your looking for
It's right there on the tip of your tongue. Just say it. I'm lying. I saw this hand on TV or something, right?

Quit trolling dude. It's getting old.
06-13-2015 , 08:05 PM
I'm not trolling (I gave you really good advise actually, but you chose to ignore my question of your range breakdown).

I'm generally curios what u want advise about. if he'll fold every hand worse than 77 then this line is obviously correct. But nobody here could possibly tell you that since it such a player specific read and most mistake players don't do that.

And you agree that if your read is wrong, your bluff is bad.

So if your read is right, bluff = good, if your read is bad bluff = bad
So your thread is essentially is my read on villain good? How can people answer that not having every played with him.
06-13-2015 , 08:58 PM
I mean FWIW this hand is like 1000x better played than 33.
06-14-2015 , 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pincus
Because I had a BDFD and two overs.
Two overs to what?
06-14-2015 , 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke
So if your read is right, bluff = good, if your read is bad bluff = bad
So your thread is essentially is my read on villain good?
I did not know the bolded was true until you guys said it here. That was my question.
06-14-2015 , 03:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
Two overs to what?
What do you think I meant?
06-14-2015 , 03:34 AM
Well, usually that means two overcards to the highest board card, but since that's not true here, I have no idea why you said that.
06-14-2015 , 07:20 AM
Quote:
I have no idea why you said that
You know exactly what I meant.

Would you like me to say 'two overs to the 6' next time? Would that make you happy?
06-14-2015 , 03:53 PM
No really, I wasn't sure what you meant, and there was a point to my question. If you are using "two overs" that broadly, an awful lot of your hands will be in the range you defined as wanting to bluff with here. That will put a ton of bluffs in your range. If, as others are saying, your read is that good about hands the other guy will fold, it still could be fine having such a wide bluffing range; just something to think about. If you only did it with hands that had two overcards to all the board cards, the range would be much smaller.
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