I typically play 10/20 online and the action is soft where I play. UTG I'll raise Ace 8 off and sometimes K 10 depending on the game. Just bought the Stox "Winning in tough holdem games" book and it recommends ace 10 plus!? This just seems so nitty. Never would I have imagined ace 9 to be a fold in any game situation. What I want to know is under what game conditions does K10 and ace 8 become profitable to play and what conditions does it become unprofitable. Usually the games I play are very loose aggressive and feature horrible post flop play and horrible call downs.

Truly, Whether or not you raise KTo and A9o UTG will likely not matter at all. You're at the margin. I'd probably be far more likely to raise those hands if the BB is either very bad or very tight, and the game is not seeing a lot of 3bets preflop.

I'm really not interested in playing A9 and KT for 3bets all the time OOP, nor am I interested in playing them in 3-4 way pots.

beware of stakes above 8/16 on bovada (lot of collusion). anyways, stox's ranges are pretty nitty/outdated and kto/a9o are the bottom of my default opens utg 6max.

What makes you say this about bovada?

I have no actual experience on Bovada, but I would imagine that generally speaking, anonymous sites have a much higher amount of collusion than other sites. So much tougher for players to discover/report it, so we're left just hoping Bovada security catches it?

Nah I was talking about merge network. There have been too many stories about bovada which make me weary of that site.

They advocate opening a5o on the cuttoff, which seems about right, even on the loose sides of things. Do you think their late position standards are nitty/outdated?

I haven't played in the Carbon 10 games, but watching them, they look like a collection of LAGgy showdown monkeys that turn over some amazingly crappy hands.

I would think it'd make sense to tighten up and just push your range v range edge. Probably not as much as stox says, but I wouldn't be opening, say, A7s UTG at one of those tables.

a5o is the bottom of my default in co too. i assumed it was bovada, because those games are the softest imo.

Would you be widening any ranges?

WITHG is fairly outdated and not very useful.

assuming your fundamentals are solid already, i'd think the most recent training site videos (deucescracked, cardrunners), even if a few years old, would be the best resources, as well as some of the solid recent books like Phil Newall's. You can always use the training sites to get an idea of solid fundamentals as well.

Carbon's games aren't super regular, and Bovada has more traffic. Due to the anonymous nature and setup of Bovada things I'd be a bit more worried about collusion, bots, etc, especially at the highest stakes of the limit games and especially in the four card limit games. I still think there are plenty of good spots though - you just need to be more cautious than you used to be.

since the games run less often, and are often very shorthanded, being comfortable heads up and in 3h and 4h spots is super useful these days both to start games and to keep them going. rakeback is also basically nonexistent which is a change from the past, so you won't have that extra cushion to absorb some of your variance, so keep that in mind.

the exact opening ranges from each spot aren't nearly as important as your comfort zone and general strategic approach. it makes no sense to open a range of hands that someone tells you, if you aren't confident in your overall strategy (both pre and post) and in understanding why those different hands are in your ranges. so it probably makes sense for you to start out on the tighter side, and as your game improves and you learn more stuff, and get more comfortable in marginal situations, you can loosen up bit by bit.

welcome (back?) to the forums and gl

Thank you BBB. I am very confident in my games and usa sites are a joke compared to stars 10/20 which I used to play before moving back here. I just stuggle with pre flop and I am not so much interested in rigid standards as much about how to think about pre flop and how to adapt to game conditions.

Where can I play these bots and how tough are they 6 handed?

oh okay, yes Carbon and Bovada 10/20 are a lot softer than Stars 10/20.

I'm not sure if there are strong 6m/multiway LHE bots yet (although it wouldn't surprise me) - I was more referring to HU ones.

what kinds of things preflop do you feel like you struggle with? maybe putting into words what your current strategy is (without listing out all the ranges) might be useful. for example, almost everybody is tightest utg, and loosest otb (when folded to you). what other things would you say characterize your pf game?



here are some common preflop themes that i can think of off the top of my head. i imagine most/all strong players will be comfortable with this stuff and will have studied it a fair bit:

in the sb, folded to you - do you always raise or fold, or do you have an openlimp strategy?

are there situations in a 6m game where you would openlimp preflop? what about overlimp? if so, what kind of situations?

what about coldcalling? same question as above

what about in the big blind when there's a raise and a 3bet to you - do you cap or fold, or do you have a coldcalling strategy?

what about in the big blind when the small blind raises - do you have a 3betting range, or do you just call everything? if you have a 3betting range, is it balanced or just top-heavy?

when you open and get 3bet by someone in position, and everyone else folds, do you have a capping range, or do you just call everything? if you have a capping range, is it balanced or just top-heavy?

what factors do you consider when deciding whether to 3bet someone when you're in position?

what about when you're out of position (like sb vs btn)? same question as above

i'm sure there are some others i can't think of right now. obviously a lot of your postflop strategy is going to be influenced by some of the answers/solutions/strategies that you use for preflop.

First let me say that I'm happy to have a conversation about poker theory, seems like such a rarity these days on forums for fear of helping out other players, although lhe is dead enough where I guess it doesn't matter.

1. Depends on the player. Vrs lagtards I will limp and do some balancing with limping and raising or even limp every hand if he is the type of player to just raise a ton. In which case I will limp 3 bet. Usually as a standard I raise or fold.

2. I find myself overlimping a decent amount with hands that play well enough post flop but aren't strong enough to raise. like 79 suited I will overlimp and wont raise because folding the blinds seems like an impossibility in these games. Cold calling I will do from the sb and sometimes in other positions for the same reasons. I mean my range is sort of defined to any thinking player but there seems to be few of those and enough people playing mindlessly where it doesn't concern me. maybe I will over cold call k 10 off to an open raiser who is opening a TON and a passive cold caller on the button. Basically I am not balancing here ever because the fish offset the deception of balancing all my ranged.

3. My 3 betting range is mostly value, unless the raiser is decent or over aggro and can find the fold button. Like some players will open 50 percent of hands overall and play straightfowardish post flop, then I will 3 bet hands like 78 suited. Also I try to consider how often the blind are calling 3 cold.

4. I just cap or fold to 3 bets. Unless in the blinds. In the blinds I will call for deception if there is a thinking player in the pot, unless there its 4+ ways then I will just play my ranges face up.

I am going to smoke a joint then try to explain what I struggle with specifically.

I think that basically describes all Carbon limit.

Describes all limit in american sites imo

Can I ask what stories?

By the way I think it's fine to raise A9 and KT utg 6max and I don't think it's going to make a significant difference. I would raise them if there are 1 or more players behind you who are cold calling with weak ranges.

I'm like 35/27 (pretty loose IMO) and I'm a nitbox on there compared to many.

Yeah, I'm 32/23. I practically never play a hand.

what stakes do you play on carbon?

Just the micros. I think the highest I played is 1/2.

FWIW, I've played at least 200k hands of lhe on Bovada and have never once experienced or witnessed any firm collusion. I've seen a few players attempt to collude live, but whenever "collusion" happens it's still most likely going to be +EV if you simply recognize it. For the most part, good players do not bother with colluding, which only leaves bad players whom are trying to collude, and they still do not win when they try.

I wish I knew a better way to ask this, but why are you imagining, "anonymous sites have a much higher amount of collusion than other sites" if you have no actual experience or evidence?

^ none of this applies to NL.

neopokerbot.com

You only get to play heads up without registering, but once you register, which is free, you can choose between 6max, 3max, or heads up.

You'll have to see for yourself just how tough they are.

Thanks! I remember grinding against sonia hu and man did that biatch teach me so many things. She used to make some plays I would have normally assumed were horrible but then you begin to understand what shes doing and learn she is a genius.