How come villain would never have a hand like T9 and JT and even some Qxs that want a Q high or K high flush draw or a K5/Q5 to fold?

Calling and showing even if we lose.

that doesn't necessarily make check raising bad though

how can BB beat KQ here?

Well first off since the ammount of draws on the flop is not very wide for the range i would have on the flop ( i would not call 23o,34o,45o,42o,53o, etc.in the BB pf, maybe a leak ) i probably would not c/r all my As like A2,A5.

What would be the point , to get own by better A and folding all worst hands beside pp ?
Since his aggro i would rather let him barrel all his bluff and draw cheaply vs better A .
True i would loose value vs pp but its like 25% of his range i miss value while i saw value vs all the A .

You didn't answer me question at all.

Sure maybe you check call flop with ace hi, but do you also Check River when he checks back turn?

When bb check calls flop, turn goes check check and he checks River how can he have KQ beat? What's his range at this point, certisnly he value bets 55+

Flop is a clear c/r for me. He either folds too much or calls too much, neither of which can be bad for you and makes the rest of the hand far easier to play.

Probably 22 and some 4 , might b/f 55 and b/c everything else

Why not peel flops like Q82 one suit with K6 suited then in BB v HJ open?

I've seen so many former solid players start to get way too heroic/creative because they want to make "above the rim" plays and just end up putting in chips terribly in really tough spots. Sure I've seen a lot of excellent players make calls I normally wouldn't (such as this K9 on A32 flop) but they do it in correct proportion and balance it well but for the most part will just play solid ABC LAG/TAG poker, manage their tilt, and make solid decision day in and day out.

A lot of times break even players who are frustrated why they aren't winning start trying to mimic these guys when they show winning hands like K9 on A32 flops. When these breakeven players start doing this, they win small pots a small amount of the time but feel like geniuses when they do and when they lose they lose bigger pots for no reason. All in all, sure your K9 range may be getting the right price by peeling this flop vs a LAGs HJ opening range but at the end of the day making plays like this on a constant basis will transform a small winner/breakeven player to a decent sized loser. On a very simple level, that is why position is pretty important.

Lastly, in this hand in particular if you're going to balance I prefer check raising this flop especially because the LJ may view you as passive and could exploitably fold some pairs.

As played, you do not win on river 1 out of 5 times. maybe 1 out of 7 at most. It's a fold.

in fact we should 3bet preflop to find out where we're at. it's 50/50 as to whether he calls or folds right then (he can't ever 4bet because we're repping aces)

But how does him calling down too much help you? Think this hand is really dependant on who you are playing this hand against.

Fold equity is huge and people show down a lot less than in the 40. I would k/r this flop and expect get a fold OTT often.

Against players that are rolled for this game and never fold a pair I would be more inclined to k/f flop.

If his range is what the OP says it is, folding would be a mistake against our hand but they never get to realize their equity against our range because they can't call down. If you think opponent's range has us beat bad then just fold but I think c/r is far better than check/calling. If opponent has QJ and peels thinking maybe we have primarily straight draws or Ax then we are making the perfect play.

Dude riveted an 8

Well this is just crazy talk

I wasn't trying to imply in anyway that it was. You had just asked what I expected his range was besides 8's and strong K highs. I was just trying to point out that a good player may bet the river a lot thinner against someone taking a shot because he's not expected to call with K9 otr

I'm saying that if he bets you do not win enough for this to be a profitable call.

Babar -- huh?? flop x/r is perfectly reasonable and worth discussing.

vbetting KQ on the river is spew if villain is unknown or at all capable of x/r/bluff. IP player should have some delayed aces and pocket pairs -- KQ is way too thin.

He's being sarcastic / joking due to some of the stuff in the thread.

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The hand is well played, now it's time to call the river.

There are lots of things he's going to bluff with on the river that you beat. He's going to bluff because:

(a) you were so passive +
(b) you are seen as new to the game and scared money not capable of tough calls +
(c) it's the only way he can win

You have odds to call. Even if you are beat, I'd show my hand for lots of meta reasons.

It's +EV to call river.

I think that in general people put too much effort into trying to manipulate ranges into profitable situations on this forum. And even when I agree with range equities I think the actual money that goes in out of position from the big blind isn't close to actual equity.
The mental manipulations that phunk goes through to create money in situations is somewhat mind boggling.

You should call river some percentage of time and check raise flop some really small percentage of time. But neither of these should be standard.

whaaaa? he can rep an 8, some PPs, and the rare delayed A. BB's hand is not strong enough to x/r flop or lead out river -- it's not like he needs rep a monster.

I don't understand check raising the flop at all. Are we trying to get him to fold better hands or call with worse ones?

If we want him to fold better hands, I feel like we have a lot of less showdownable flush draws/gutshots/backdoor garbage that probably wants to see a turn and are better candidates to bluff with. If we just check raise our whole continuing range we are going to be putting in way too much action with too many hands and he should be easily be able to exploit that.

If we want him to call with worse hands, I just think we are being way too optimistic. I mean are we expecting we can bet 3 streets and have him pay off with queen high?

Ks9x just seems like the right part of our range to play passively/bluff catch.

You mean when I put people on ranges and try to figure out how we are doing against it? Yea, that's useless stuff right there. Nobody should bother

I agree for most part and think it's not good. Gobbo point is simply lots of Villian range is 9-10 through Kx hands that may just fold flop and we gain equity from time they turn or River 6 outer (like if they have 8-9 here).


This would be easy enough mah to do if I cared enough (I don't) but there are problems with this like as well.

Gob I says it makes it easier to play? How so, we just check fold turn. If we make a habit of doing this ever people are gonna put us in tough spots after folding flop never.

You also need to decide how often Villian barrels off worse if we are committed to showdown.

Darn you beat me to it. Raise river looks exactly right. Check raise flop I think is horrible