30/60 live: Level above / level below - Page 7 - Medium Stakes Poker Forum

AlienBoy · 08-25-2012, 08:52 PM

Grunchy

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

1. Is this a spot where I should either r/c or c the flop to keep my range wide?

2. Am I just leveling myself when I'm pretty sure he's pretty sure I have 2pair+?

3. Folding turn is laughably bad, right? Even if my hand reading analysis is right?

1) I don't think there is any reason to slow play here when he is showing strength - shovel in the chips.

2) You have middle set on a rainbow board. You don't need to level anything, just ship in the chips.

3) Folding is not an option. He plays AA, KK, QQ, AJ the same way - he may even play 55 and JTs the same way in position PF (he is in position right? You didn't say what position he was in??!).

If your read is really that is is as strong as JJ for top set, then sure just call down. This may be a leak for me, but I usually 3-bet this turn and *then* call down.

So... did he have JJ?

AlienBoy · 08-25-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

Even in position?

Just realized positions were not super clear. I am HJ/UTG, he is SB. I should have both r/c and r/4 ranges preflop, shouldn't I?

OKay, so take JTs and 55 out of his PF 3 bet range I think. But IMO you're best most of the time here.

Hugh_G_Johnson · 08-28-2012, 01:43 AM

Is it not true that never 4-betting is somewhat exploitable? Villain can 3bet w/o fear of getting 4bet. Could you not occasionally toss in an extra bet w/KQ otf for ballance? Notice that; as the villain checked the turn, it would have allowed KQ a free card (more expensive than never raising, but cheaper than calling a 3b/turn lead). To exploit that play villain now folds to 4bet unless he has odds to draw vs nuts (or near nuts). If villain makes that adjustment, he is now making an obviously highly exploitable play himself. How nice would it be if 4bet=win? You're 2bets would also get much more respect (or you'd steal a ton of pots) and you'd get a bunch of free cards.
Which, in turn would also automatically put your nut hands back into your <4bet range. Although, you would do that yourself by mixing up your play.

In fairness to lawdude; I believe his argument is that it is impossible for even very good players to have a perfectly balanced strategy. Furthermore; the better the player the more he will use hand reading to narrow his opponent's range. So, if you can charge him another bet in a way that will mislead him and possibly cost him more bets; that's a huge coup. Is it that big of a deal if it isn't balanced? Wait 10 years before you do it again...

As far as the metagame goes, playing a monster like this should slow your opponent down in future hands and possibly convince him to pay off future slowplays. I definitely don't think he wants us to always 4bet w/a set or even only 4bet w/a set. Lawdude is trying to exploit, he wants to win -- not cross his fingers hoping someone will screw up. You shouldn't veer too far off the theoretically perfect strategy, but if you're taking advantages of opponents mistakes and/or causing them; it's actually better than playing perfect. Are we really giving up 'playing' poker and going by a strict basic strategy like blackjack or video poker? If the opponent is truly un-exploitable we should take a walk until some drunks show up, or switch tables.

As far as the hand goes I think the villain still has AA, KK, JT, A(K,Q,J,T) FDs, KQ, 55 in his range. I'm not even going to mention the f word.

BTW -- I believe in what I wrote, but my questions are not at all rhetorical (except for the 4bet=win one

). If I'm totally wrong in my thinking please correct me.

JdTSC · 08-31-2012, 11:45 AM

Thank you Lawdude.

Nh OTR.

DenverPro · 08-31-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

And you are acting as if a strong player is going to go 8 or 9 bets against you on the flop when he has an overpair. Read the hand history. Obviously there are people against whom fastplaying is correct. Those spots are usually super simple since you are playing against people who can't read the board or tie their own shoes. Against stronger players, poker isn't as simple as "if I fastplay he's going to misread my hand and put in way too much action." which is basically what you are saying in this thread.

Put simply, against these players, you have to construct your range in a way that is both effective and balanced. Just because your opponent puts in a lot of action with a strong second best hand doesn't mean that you've played your hand correctly. Most of the time they are putting in an appropriate amount of action against your range; the secret to making money in poker is not getting payed off by the hands you're supposed to be payed off against. It's making your opponent make mistakes against your range. Let me say that again because I think it's really important:

The secret to making money in poker is to make your opponent make mistakes vs. your range.

Lets take this hand for example. Lets say I call the flop and raise the brick turn against someone who has a reasonable strategy for 3betting and barrelling flop/turn (ie he has strong hands, weak hands and medium hands), the correct play against my range is to 3bet at least AJ+. So if my opponent is playing correctly, I get to 4bet the strongest part of my range and gain the value that I "lost" by waiting until the turn. And if they are playing too passively, I profit anyway! They are making a mistake and my default strategy will punish them for it.

This is because I've constructed my range in a way to combat a reasonable 3bet and barrell strategy. If you veer away from your reasonable strategy in either direction in any given hand, I will punish you by the nature of my strategy. And if your overall strategy is flawed, I will adjust my overall strategy to punish you for that.

So at the heart of what I'm saying is a distinction that's really important to understand. There are mistakes within a given hand that every player, no matter how good they are, make. They may be tired or tilting, they may just have a lapse in judgement. If your strategy is sound, you can punish these mistakes even if you don't recognize the reason for them. That's why it's so important to play a relatively balanced style against good players. Both so that you can avoid losing to their style and so that you can take advantage of mistakes when they make them.

On the other hand, if you recognize a systematic flaw in your opponent's approach, you can adjust your strategy to take advantage of this approach. I think a lot of middle stakes pros get muddled when they try to "exploit" another good player. What they don't understand is that when they do that, they are throwing their own strategy out of alignment, opening themselves up to the effective and balanced strategy of their opponent. Or, even worse, to being counter-exploited by a better poker thinker/player.

I'm not sure if that makes a bunch of sense as I just rambled for a while, but it's all stuff I've been thinking of for a while.

I was prepared to start my career as a professional proker player this weekend, and then I read this post and said; "Denver, you have much to learn.". Back to the play money tables on Stars.

Very nice.

lawdude · 09-03-2012, 01:06 AM

I drifted away from this thread because one big leak I definitely do have is arguing. I need to talk less and listen more.

But I do want to thank Hugh for summarizing what is really my point of view in a better fashion than I ever did, private for sticking up for the fact that I was not trolling, and OTR for posting great material and disagreeing with me in an entirely civil manner.