Been playing in Colorado games for two days, games are spectacular, for most part they play like 4-8 games.
V1: bad lag, plays a ton of hands. Likes to come in like 75% of time for a raise. 25% just open limps in hands he plays
V2: similar, slightly tighter but similar play style, older Asian that just got back from smoking weed.
Hero: viewed as tag
Preflop
there is a poster in cutoff, I am in hj. Two limpers, I raise asqs, v2 poster calls, v1 calls in sb. Bb and limpers call.

Flop 334r, one spade, I bet, v2 raises, v1 calls, rest fold, hero calls.
Considered checking flop but not really, could have best hand and probably 6 outs and back door flush draw.

Turn q r
X,x, v2 bets, v1 calls, hero raises, v2 folds, v1 three bets, hero folds.

I considered leading turn but again barely, laggy player will bet most of time here with draw or pair.
I also considered just calling on turn. I felt like I was likely to have best hand would make maybe three more bets getting called down by worse.
I felt like a three was almost never a bluff and I could fold not getting quite enough to call.
I think all decisions were right tbh, but friend thinks turn should just be a call.
Thanks for feedback.

It seems like folding this to a "bad LAG" is criminal. Can't he have all sorts of straight draws, or be FSDR with like 55?

In general I think bad lags raise a lot preflop, maybe overplay made hands. But are not really thinking players. If there was a flush draw out there, I could see an argument for it. This guy, I think Gary is his name, big muscular guy, is at the end of a 24 hour session and though raising a lot pre is not getting out of line post flop outside of cbetting almost all scrappy hands he is raising pre.

You are way up in your range. Everyone on this board will tell you to at least call down.
You can only make this fold if you have a really really good read.

Other hands to possibly put in villains range: Qx.

You forgot that fish always wait til the turn w/ a 3 (do you have a read that he doesn't?)

Subtract 3x/FH's, AA, and KK from his range, and what exactly do you lose to? Q4?

Must, must, must call down.

Jdr, I don't get where you get your ranges from, you eliminate 3's and full houses.
Why? You think air, pocket pairs, and queens are more likely to be played this way.
Phunk, I know where I'm at in my range. But I honestly think I'm more in middle of perceived range.
I probably don't have qq much, 44 almost never or even aa here a lot,(though aa probably more than others).
But I think that they would be scared of it. So I think it's almost never a random spew three. Or a light value three.

Yes. Live mid-stakes fish aren't allowed to have trips or a FH when they raise the flop until proven otherwise.

He didn't raise the flop.

Seriously, try to pay attention to the hand before posting such authoritative-sounding advice. I think this isn't the first time.

You're right, I skimmed (though I'd be careful on pot calling kettle black advice here). So my apologies to OP.

Seeing V1 smoothie, call/backraise makes this a far tougher decision. I still think we have to call down given our lack of read in this spot, but I expect to be shown a 3 a lot here.

Maybe an interesting question to OP.
If we fold AQ, what is the minimum hand strength you call in your range ?
QQ and probably the only one since AQ is probably like KK and AA since V1 would of raise pf or 3bet when it came back to him pf.
And i really doubt you would of raise with 44 instead of overlimping pf .
We had some kind of similar hands when we were facing a nit raise on turn in this forum some days/week ago and lot of peoples said to fold the turn with the second nuts hand in our range because he was a nit.

Here it is a bad LAG?
Why on earth would you fold like the 4th nutz vs this kind of player, especially in big pot like here where even online players, i see lot of bad aggro plays by LAG in big pot.
I do not see why this would different here...

If OP's read is bad LAG v1 does not get out of line often post flop, then folding to the turn 3! is fine IMO. Nice hand.

You should listen to your friend, don't raise the turn if you are planning to fold to a 3. V1 calling two bets cold on the flop would send up a red flag that it's time to get to showdown.

6max- I disagree that flop call means that strong of a hand, he is calling there with any pair 5-10. 56, 57, a5, and a2. Also calling turn with those.
Are you saying we shouldn't three if we are going to make it three if we are going to make a bad fold to a three? This I would obviously agree with. Assume we make correct decisions after, what is best play on turn, raise or call.

What does that means exactly ?

When someone raise the turn it is always the nutz, the second nutz or even the third nutz ?
What is your treshold hands usually ( nvm this hand) to call in a similar situation when you say that quote?

Seem to me we fold to a turn raise because we do not have the pure nutz is kind of silly, especially in big pot.


ps: and when we get around 14-1, the word "often" in your quote should be replace by "never" to make this fold correct imo.

In my limited short career of playing around 1500hr live LHE, the 3! turn bluff/semi bluff is so rare that I think folding to the 3! is fine when you are drawing to at best 2 outs. OP was the preflop raiser, and OP RAISED the turn. How many live players even maniac will 3! this spot as a bluff?

You've never played in this game. Take these cards out of my cold dead hands. Do we put in one more raise? That's the question.

Agree. I'll refrain from posting on games that I have never played in before. Maybe the Villain is very different from the ones that I've encountered in so cal.

Still lhelhe you did not answer my question about what the minimum is for you to call down .

Is it top pair top kicker your threshold hands, i am just asking because these kind of phrases ( villain never get out of line) can mean a lot of thing for different persons.

Now for my part, could a kqs 3 bet here in villain shoes being a bad LAG , why not ?

Now he never gets out of line means tptk never good for you, or doest it mean a stonger hand ?

Lets say we raise in OP spot with 99,ATs,KJs,QJs, AQ,KQ range .(100 combos)
Possible hands left in our range are QQ, AA and KK that beats tptk we can call with , which represent around what ? 15% of our range .
Now imo, can villain 3bet AQ here, your phrase do not mean much for me but lets say he would not, because we fold it thinking we cannot split pot , correct ?

Now imo we can fold KK and AA since they are the same strength has AQ on this board ( i really doubt a bad LAG would not iso raise KK and AA pf..).

Now basically we have only QQ left in our range which is 3%.

In a 14 -1 odds, u better be sure your hand is no good when you can only call with the nutz in your range.

And if you like clearly never call without the nutz, you can be sure a bad LAG will take shot at you after imo.

imo the range i use is pretty tight, so with a wider range the nutz hand QQ we only call with represent even less then 3 % calling range.
Wich we would actually raise with, meaning we do not even have 1 hand in our calling range in that situation ...

Ps : i am not attacking you btw lhelhe, i am a bit confused and it does not mean much too me when someone says : never get out of line".
Maybe it refer to a standard value that i am not aware of , simple as that.

No offence taken. I'm just stating my opinion. I think we can exploitatively fold TPTK here after being 3 betted by someone who flat 2 on the flop. I will also fold AA,KK here. Call me mubsy. V can't have KK/AA, he 'could have' Qx, but if I put myself in his shoe, he would have just called down any Qx after our turn raise. Look at the action on the turn again....V2 bet, V1 call, hero raise, v2 surrender, v1 back raise 3! (????) To me this is almost always a slowplayed 3x or 44 which we are just drawing to 2 outs and 14-1 is not enough to call down.

In general, the more I respect a Villain's game, the more likely I'll call down because I think very strong player is capable of making this move to rep a 3x or 44(to exploit my 'mubsy' nature). But V1 here is described as 'BAD'....and I just don't think he is capable of making this "flat call turn bet and then raise 3!" move.

Then again, DougL has said I've never played in this game so I could be very very wrong. I'm just stating how I would have played it.

Fair enough and i kind of agree with doug.
When we speak about very exploitive move like folding here AQ , we should say so because purely exploitive moves are imo very different for games to games .
Someone posting here , trying to find a "standard" call down and not a "standard" exploitive fold might not see the difference.

This was the main reason i was kind of stuck up on " do not get out of line " value.

I am just starting to see it for my parts ...

Basically is a statement of exploitation. Villains don't bluff enough (or at all) on the turn, thus we snap fold some of our weaker value hands and feel great.
Is a great point about looking at our own range and finding that we fold every hand, other than the ones we re-raise for value.
My point is actually on LHELHELHE's side of things. I'm making a read of the villains in this game, rather than looking at my own range. It was actually a bit surprising that the OP didn't get whipsawed on the turn. You might have to consider calling a 4 bet here and calling down against some lineups in some games there. In these games, bad LAGs are perfectly capable of deciding that once hero has c/r driven V1 out of the hand, the pot is HU, and now might be the time to put on some pressure. V1 flats the first bet and then raises on the turn. Is that a value line? How often does hero actually c/r the turn?

In a potentially wild game in a hand vs. two LAG players (one is a listed as 100/25 PF), folding TP on a dry board seems bad. I'm with OP's friend. Back to Montrealcorp's point, this might be the top of our range that isn't QQ. If our hero fast plays over pairs on the flop, this is literally our best possible hand. Go back to that, if our flop plan is to re-raise 88+ (or whatever pairs we have), then by calling flop, top pair top kicker is the best hand we have -- the villain wins by call/raising the turn because we fold 100% of our range.

I think this would be a standard fold in most games vs most villains, but against some villains you need to call down.

It is a tough decision here; DougL and some others have experienced this game's craziness and believe it is worth calling, but OP has his read from playing with that actual player.

I would have never been in this exact spot because I would have just be the turn, and I do think this was still mostly likely the best way to play the hand. I do find it very odd that the villain didn't even check-raise at his first chance on the turn but took the second opportunity.

If your standard play on this turn is to c/r for value and then fold every hand you hold, you need to look at how you're playing previous streets and this one. People (fun ones) defend their kill in this game, so there are plenty of 50/100 hands in this game -- it is big and plays big. In a big game on a Qxyy board where x&y are low, your r/f of 100% of your value range seems a huge leak.

Let's ignore the game texture, you have spots where you're constructing ranges so that you value c/r and then fold every hand you can hold?

lol @ raising turn with the intention of folding to a 3-bet. building huge pots and then folding huge hands is not the way to win in a laggy LHE game.

Yeah i think we all agree on this.
It might be a possible play in NL because reraise bet gets so big its possible to fold to a 3bet but in limit the cost is so small to call a 3bet, i would almost never fold here with a hand i raised for value in limit.
Bet fold yeah, raise fold has bluff yeah , raise fold with value hands ? Very very rarely for sure.

Maybe this is some kind of concept/play that gets mixed up with limit and NL games that should not.