I am newer to Limit format & limited game selection (hence the 30/60). I know it is a cardinal sin to fold river in bigger pots on river, but wondering if this is one of those few spots.

First hour at table & no real reads. 4-5 to flopping most pots limped/ or single raise.





Hero SB 33


Utg Limp
VILLAIN Utg +1 raise ( middle age active Asian palyer/seems to be reg)
Mp cold calls 2 bets
hero calls
BB calls
Utg calls

Flop (12SB) KT3

Hero SB bet
BB call
Utg call
villain raise
Mp fold
hero 3bet (thoughts?)
BB fold
Utg fold
villain 4 bet (cap)
Hero call

turn (10 BB) 8

hero lead out
villain raise
Hero calł

river (14BB) J
Hero checks


My thoughts are we only beat big pair non club hands, is that enough to have to make crying call vs Asian villain with this line . By comparison I called off my river bet on a 3 flush coordinated board with 2 pr earlier in similar spot vs younger LAG

Preflop is marginal, but I sometimes put in a call here from the SB w/ this action.

I like the flop. PFR has a lot of holdings in this big of a pot that he'll want to check, and he'll also be looking to "protect" hands like AK by raising (not that raising is a bad play, it's just bad against your exact hand, which is good for you). And definitely three betting when I get raised.

Turn, I would check call. This isn't a good card for us, and villain is probably going to bet this turn.

River, I can't think of anything you beat from a sane human being that bets the river. You can fold if he bets.

After he caps flop I think betting out turn is pointless. Call down for the few times he has AK, AQ, QJ or KT instead of KK.

Are we giving up too much value to one club hands if he decides to take a free card ? Or do we think he will not do this often enough with the Cap on the flop?

I mean, what 1-club hands can he even have that check? AcQx would be pretty spewy. AcKx is betting, AcAx is betting.

i can taste the bile in my mouth just reading the post I want to vomit so much

Serious question: why are people so obsessed with calling with shifty hands preflop and then just donking when they flop gin?

Seriously wtf? I've been fighting this exact post for 8 years now and it still tilts the **** out of me more than any beat at the table.

We call with some piece of **** hand preflop, get the EXACT flop we want and people pop a boner and want to **** it up every time by minimizing our win.

He raised utg+1. Either he or mp is betting this flop every single time with any pair T*,any guy shot, and any flush draw. We're not donking a K so why the **** do people always insist on donking a set? It's day 1, level 1 tagfish.

If it checks through who gives a ****? It's mean they have shot to begin with

do you always slow play when you flop gin? or, do you not donk the flop MW with some draws/low pairs? why do we need to apply higher level play in this spot? if it checks through, isn't that much, much less favorable than getting multiple bets in MW on the flop? are you seriously advocating fold pre?

NH imo

How can you ask that question? What possible hand can we get multiple bets in against if we donk, but have to worry about checking through?

Ps: how can you ask the other question either? It's not higher level thought. It's basic good poker.

Scared fish donk this flop because they don't know what else to do, and O!M!!!?!?&G it might check through. People who know how to play post flop c/r

i only asked cause you said "who cares if it checks through". i do agree that the likelihood of it getting checked through is very slim

i usually donk this flop because i want it to get raised MW so i can re-raise. then i can lead the (safe) turn and get raised so i can re-raise. also since 2 players are in between me and the raiser, there is a good likelihood that we rope them in for 1 small bet, as opposed to when we c/r we can only trap 1 player. it's true i am probably a fish but I'm definitely not scared here

but yes, c/r also makes sense though, and it probably leads to a higher likelihood of being able to 3b the turn. but could you explain why c/r is MUCH more favorable than donking, to the point where you get this tilted? to me it seems like both options have their merits and it's pretty close and villain-dependent. what am i missing here?

If you donk/3 the flop your range is extremely polarized and you may as well turn your hand face up. If you d/b me I never raise you again unless you're beat. If you c/r the flop your range includes any K or draw get to 4b the flop or jam the turn.

33 is a **** hand that will only win in this spot pg when you flop a set +, why the **** do you then want to take the line that is the easiest to play against and makes you the least money when you do get the flop you want?

There is basically no chance this flop checks through, and the times it does means you d got deck crippled and if doesn't matter

The reason it tilts me so badly is this is such a trivially easy spot to c/r and win a massive pot but people here who are trying to play hood insist on donking and limiting there profit

What range do you think some who just cold calls preflop with here and then blows a load over on this flop out of position? It's exactly 33 on this flop every time. Good players know this and just stop putting in extra bets and showdown as cheaply as possible. If you c/r your range is much much wider and you Can end up winning a monster pot. Which is exactly why we call with 33 preflop. To flop a monster a win a pot, not to flop s minster and win a biggish one

I don't know if I've ever seen a post that so perfectly summarizes my exact thoughts before. Also, take a long look at ZOMG posts, the content is really really good

do you donk when you flop two pair here, or are you just never donking? also, when you c/r with a draw and miss, I'm assuming you're barreling the rest of the way?

i always thought i was balancing by donking with some flush draws or straight draws, or something like A3 here, but i can see how that would be bad too.

thanks for the feedback btw. though i can't tell if I'm learning or just becoming more confused lol

Your donking range should be determined by frequency at which your opponent will check back, not necessarily your hand strength

Why, for the love of Odin, why would you ever donk even think about donking A3?

When you donk here your hand is instantly identifiable as one of two things. You either flopped a monster you don't know how to play, or you flopped some marginal hand you don't know to play. And I find out which by putting in one raise, on the flop. If it's a monster you three bet as planned and I either get to showdown as cheaply as possible, or I can fold. If it's a marginal hand all you're doing is isolating yourself against the better hand or value towning yourself.

If you donk A3 here are you three betting it? Then what range do you think you get out on when you do?

If you check raise what's your range? A flush draw? A set? A straight draw? A king? Ace ten? Who the **** knows. Your range is infinitely larger and harder to play against. If you bet/b this flop you get no further action unless you're beat, if you c/r it you get to either 4b the flop or jam the turn.


Watch carefully, Every time you donk/3 bet this flop the best player at the table is rolling his eyes and telling you nice hand while silently thanking you for saving him 2 big bets

Exactly the insight & thought process I was looking for. My simple reasoning for donking is to build a pot knowing he will raise & I can 3b flop. If I c/r I am losing bets from BB & Utg who are less likely to cold call 2bets .

this makes so much sense and its obviously a really simple idea but i just never thought of it this way. tysm

With one shot, ZOMG kills 30+% of the profit in the low/micros online. Pure efficiency.

DD not far behind with the donking advice, probably a good 10%