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Old 12-25-2012, 12:50 PM   #16
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I don't want to get into a big-time mathematical discussion here, but while I might agree somewhat about the BB, with respect to UTG+1, this sort of comment is exactly the sort of thing that makes me suspicious of the issue of "balance" in multiway games.

There are strong mathematical reasons why GTO bots have not been invented that solve multi-way games, and this is one of them.

I don't care what anyone's idea of "balance" is, the idea that you are better off cold-calling UTG+1 (which, by the way, as ANY no limit player will tell you, ALSO announces that you have a strong hand), especially when there really isn't anything that should be in your range besides really strong hands that you can profitably play for "balance" anyway, and where you create huge multi-way playability issues for your hand, seems completely wrong.

Multi-way poker creates situations where your ranges have to be so narrow that little balancing is possible. One of the reasons GTO bots have been able to precisely balance play in heads up games is because ranges are wide enough to allow for it.

I can say with 100 percent certainty that in a full ring limit poker game, it is neither profitable nor possible to obtain any sort of positive EV from seeking "balance" in your UTG+1 range against a TAG UTG opener. Balance is irrelevant to this situation; if you love balancing, go play heads up or shorthanded or save it for situations in your full ring games when it is appropriate.
he was talking about in NL
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by plz fold View Post
UTG opens, Hero flats AA UTG+2,
This flat makes the baby Jesus cry. You need to minraise here.

Last edited by Chasqui; 12-25-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:33 PM   #18
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
he was talking about in NL
Of course I was. It was in response to Armor. A 3 bet here in limit is a completely different thing.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:33 PM   #19
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by Chasqui View Post
This flat makes the baby Jesus cry. You need to minraise here.
Lol. I see what you did there.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:30 PM   #20
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by plz fold View Post
V1 is a TAGgy prop. V2 is laggy pro (not prop AFAIK).

UTG opens, Hero flats UTG+2, 3 others call, V2 flats in BB.
There were a couple steaming fish to my left so I wanted them in at any cost

Flop: Q77
UTG bets, Hero flats, folds to BB who raises, UTG 3!, Hero flats, BB caps, UTG flats, Hero flats.

V2's first raise can be any queen and V1 has like 0 sevens in his range right? After the 4! I'm pretty sure I'm full house mining though.

Turn: 6
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls

Bad call? Good call? Not getting right price to full house mine but maybe I'm good 5% of the time anyway?

River: Q
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero folds, BB calls

River is obv worst card to hero call so I think I make a standard laydown.
In this hand you made a total of 5 calls, 1 fold, and 0 bets or raises. 3-bet preflop or raise this flop the first time around. And if you're so sure you're boat-mining then fold the turn. River fold is standard and the only street I like.
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:44 PM   #21
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by colt45ss View Post
Why isn't this a universal truth from Limit Hold'em Borer,Mak,and Tannenbaum
" Straightforward solid poker is best in high limit games. The best players play their big hands fast. Three betting or capping the flop . When these players think they have the best hands they raise ,if they have a good draw they raise, if they think you might fold they raise otherwise they fold
Is anything other than three betting that's proper here? I play those aces aggressively three bet pre and come out barreling on the flop
I agree - In limit, I 3-bet PF. No slow-playing.

And frankly, when i do that, I often get tilting fish champing at the bit to cold-call me. No trickiness required!
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:36 PM   #22
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

NL players call it poo-flinging for a reason, now go fling that poo!
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:04 AM   #23
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

I think the only marginal play is preflop. I also think preflop could be defensible with a more detailed read on the steaming fish. I have coldcalled in similar spots, although I can't say confidently that it was the best play. I would play postflop the same.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:57 AM   #24
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
I think the only marginal play is preflop. I also think preflop could be defensible with a more detailed read on the steaming fish. I have coldcalled in similar spots, although I can't say confidently that it was the best play. I would play postflop the same.
Care to elaborate on the flop play? Don't see how just calling is good here when you crush utg's opening range and get 3bet by aq or kk.
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:45 AM   #25
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

I don't know what's better, the OP or the necro bump.


OP, love the line as played. Perfect laydown on the river and if an Ace came? Man they'd never see it coming, you might be able to get it all in $40 at a time!
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:12 PM   #26
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by lycosid View Post
Care to elaborate on the flop play? Don't see how just calling is good here when you crush utg's opening range and get 3bet by aq or kk.
As played, I agree with this completely, just fast play multiway.

Now, if he'd three bet (correctly in my opinion) then there is sometimes merit to play a flop like this as normally we're WA/WB and we can represent 88, 99, 10-10, JJ or A-K and get more big bets in on the turn.

In a forum I can never justify cold calling a raise with A-A in limit hold em to a raise in early position. Situations arise very rarely that it might be correct but, it's SO opponent dependent AND takes a high level of experience to know when the play is correct that generally speaking it's bad advice. Especially if they're tilting! This makes them more likely to cold call three to the face. For balance? Just three bet occasionally with 8-9suited and that solves that problem.

I personally like to balance using aggression occasionally with mediocre hands than to use "trapping" with big ones in limit. In other words, I always raise with AA(full ring game) but, my opponents know(if they've been paying attention) that I'm also capable of doing it with 8-9s. In the long run I feel the advertising costs are close to the same and I feel like a raise is harder to "read by feel" than a cold call because games have gotten so aggressive these days. I do admit that I've never done any mathematical analysis on this and would love to hear the input/feedback from others about this approach.
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