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Old 12-24-2012, 02:06 PM   #1
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20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

V1 is a TAGgy prop. V2 is laggy pro (not prop AFAIK).

UTG opens, Hero flats UTG+2, 3 others call, V2 flats in BB.
There were a couple steaming fish to my left so I wanted them in at any cost

Flop: Q77
UTG bets, Hero flats, folds to BB who raises, UTG 3!, Hero flats, BB caps, UTG flats, Hero flats.

V2's first raise can be any queen and V1 has like 0 sevens in his range right? After the 4! I'm pretty sure I'm full house mining though.

Turn: 6
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls

Bad call? Good call? Not getting right price to full house mine but maybe I'm good 5% of the time anyway?

River: Q
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero folds, BB calls

River is obv worst card to hero call so I think I make a standard laydown.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #2
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

Pre-flop: Don't flat your aces. Just 3-bet them pre-. I am not going to go into 100 percent condemnation mode with respect to multi-way slowplay (though for the record, I basically think that it's almost never correct), but suffice to say, if you are a regular no limit player you are not going to be able to identify the correct situations, so a hard and fast rule of fastplaying everything multiway will suit you better.

The fact that there are steaming fish acting after you doesn't change things. Your aces are going to be harder to play OOP and multiway, even against steaming fish. Let them call 3 bets if they want to play.

Also, one shouldn't be results oriented, but this sort of hand is exactly what you want to avoid and 3-betting your aces will help with that.

Flop: As played, raise the flop. This is a good flop for your hand at least until anyone shows up with a 7, and since you let these fish in why not let them call 2 bets cold with lousy draws?

As played when it comes back to you, though, the flat is fine although a cap would also be fine. I suspect most of this forum will advocate a cap, so let me defend your call of the 3-bets here. In reality, it's hard to hit a Q77 flop and you have two guys saying they hit it. That means that you are in something of a way ahead / way behind spot here. Taking a passive line after the flop gets 3 bet may give you a chance to get away from your aces if someone raises on a big street and may also give you a better chance to read their hands and get a good value bet in if they check at some point.

Turn is standard.

River you HAVE to pay off. You are getting 16 to 1 on your call. This is the BIG difference between limit and no limit. We rarely make big laydowns in big pots. Is your hand good here 6 or 7 percent of the time? Plus, making these sorts of hero folds can encourage good opponents to try to bluff you off your hands on the river.

I'm not saying you should never make a hero fold. But it should be rare, it should be based on a good solid read based on a lot of hands against the opponent, it should be in a smaller pot, and it should be in a situation where future exploitation is unlikely. Call the river. If BB x/raises and UTG calls, you can fold then.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:29 PM   #3
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

Not sure if this is a serious post but if so let's start by 3-betting PF. Always.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:30 PM   #4
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by plz fold View Post

UTG opens, Hero flats UTG+2, 3 others call, V2 flats in BB.
There were a couple steaming fish to my left so I wanted them in at any cost
You tell this story like this is quite a standard play in NL, which I think it is not.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:42 PM   #5
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

Holy hell wtf....
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32 View Post
You tell this story like this is quite a standard play in NL, which I think it is not.
3balling a tag props raise when im utg+2 and theres visibly tilting fish to my left is pretty bad in nl unless the prop is terrible and flats me with like ako or stacks off with qq/jj.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:58 PM   #7
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

Now that you play limit you no longer flat, simply cold call.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:58 PM   #8
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by plz fold View Post
UTG opens, Hero flats UTG+2, 3 others call, V2 flats in BB.
There were a couple steaming fish to my left so I wanted them in at any cost
Horrible (no offense )
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:53 PM   #9
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by armor32 View Post
You tell this story like this is quite a standard play in NL, which I think it is not.
Reraising AA preflop at every available opportunity is clearly the standard but the most common spots to flat are when you are either in the BB or UTG+1 and there is a raise from UTG. If you 3 bet you basically announce your hand as monstrous and there is no way to balance profitably by deciding to 3 bet junk since the range you are up against is so strong. It seems like a rough spot to play OOP vs possibly a large field but your hand has obvious deception value and playing multiway in a single raised pot is still more profitable than winning the 3.5x open from UTG when he folds his AJ.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:43 AM   #10
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

^ agree with exceptions to not 3betting AA UTG+1 vs UTG open. i like it more at a tough table where UTG is a good TAG. in a game where loose players are likely to take 3 to the face we give up equity by not 3betting.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:51 AM   #11
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
River you HAVE to pay off. You are getting 16 to 1 on your call. This is the BIG difference between limit and no limit. We rarely make big laydowns in big pots. Is your hand good here 6 or 7 percent of the time? Plus, making these sorts of hero folds can encourage good opponents to try to bluff you off your hands on the river.

I'm not saying you should never make a hero fold. But it should be rare, it should be based on a good solid read based on a lot of hands against the opponent, it should be in a smaller pot, and it should be in a situation where future exploitation is unlikely. Call the river. If BB x/raises and UTG calls, you can fold then.
I would disagree that this is exploitable -- it's too confusing. As far as both BB and UTG perceive, we have quasi-appropriate cold-calling hands like KQs / QJs and are bad at limit poker because we refuse to fold them on the flop or turn. When UTG bets this river, he's probably thinking "sweet, now I'm chopping this pot with UTG+2, but hopefully the moron in the BB will overcall with his 7 because big pot ldo."

Once you fold, they will both (if they're thinking) think "what the @%!$ did that silly NL player have," but they won't be able to use this information to exploit you. They'll just be mystified. So good fold.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:53 AM   #12
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by surfdoc View Post
Reraising AA preflop at every available opportunity is clearly the standard but the most common spots to flat are when you are either in the BB or UTG+1 and there is a raise from UTG. If you 3 bet you basically announce your hand as monstrous and there is no way to balance profitably by deciding to 3 bet junk since the range you are up against is so strong. It seems like a rough spot to play OOP vs possibly a large field but your hand has obvious deception value and playing multiway in a single raised pot is still more profitable than winning the 3.5x open from UTG when he folds his AJ.
I don't want to get into a big-time mathematical discussion here, but while I might agree somewhat about the BB, with respect to UTG+1, this sort of comment is exactly the sort of thing that makes me suspicious of the issue of "balance" in multiway games.

There are strong mathematical reasons why GTO bots have not been invented that solve multi-way games, and this is one of them.

I don't care what anyone's idea of "balance" is, the idea that you are better off cold-calling UTG+1 (which, by the way, as ANY no limit player will tell you, ALSO announces that you have a strong hand), especially when there really isn't anything that should be in your range besides really strong hands that you can profitably play for "balance" anyway, and where you create huge multi-way playability issues for your hand, seems completely wrong.

Multi-way poker creates situations where your ranges have to be so narrow that little balancing is possible. One of the reasons GTO bots have been able to precisely balance play in heads up games is because ranges are wide enough to allow for it.

I can say with 100 percent certainty that in a full ring limit poker game, it is neither profitable nor possible to obtain any sort of positive EV from seeking "balance" in your UTG+1 range against a TAG UTG opener. Balance is irrelevant to this situation; if you love balancing, go play heads up or shorthanded or save it for situations in your full ring games when it is appropriate.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:54 AM   #13
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by Leslieweizen View Post
I would disagree that this is exploitable -- it's too confusing. As far as both BB and UTG perceive, we have quasi-appropriate cold-calling hands like KQs / QJs and are bad at limit poker because we refuse to fold them on the flop or turn. When UTG bets this river, he's probably thinking "sweet, now I'm chopping this pot with UTG+2, but hopefully the moron in the BB will overcall with his 7 because big pot ldo."

Once you fold, they will both (if they're thinking) think "what the @%!$ did that silly NL player have," but they won't be able to use this information to exploit you. They'll just be mystified. So good fold.
Even if you don't think it's exploitable, it's still not a good fold. 16 to 1, fur coats, etc.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:31 AM   #14
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

I would totally buy a fur coat for 16 shrimp cocktails, but give us a scenario where aces take the pot here. I couldn't come up with one. It seems like BB has a fur coat dilemma, not us.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:20 PM   #15
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Re: 20-40 NL player trying to play Aces

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Originally Posted by plz fold View Post
3balling a tag props raise when im utg+2 and theres visibly tilting fish to my left is pretty bad in nl unless the prop is terrible and flats me with like ako or stacks off with qq/jj.
Why isn't this a universal truth from Limit Hold'em Borer,Mak,and Tannenbaum
" Straightforward solid poker is best in high limit games. The best players play their big hands fast. Three betting or capping the flop . When these players think they have the best hands they raise ,if they have a good draw they raise, if they think you might fold they raise otherwise they fold
Is anything other than three betting that's proper here? I play those aces aggressively three bet pre and come out barreling on the flop
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