20/40 at Bay 101. I don't play here often so my image is probably some random they don't recognize who isn't terrible. Not overly spewy nor tight.

Villain 1 is a regular who doesn't suck but is too aggressive and a bit spewy imo. Majorly ego driven. I would imagine he beats this game though. Villain 2 is awful. Cold calling and limping constantly, going too far with any pair or draw etc. Standard donator.

Hero is MP w/ K Q

Villain 2 opens in MP, Hero 3-bets next to act. Villain 1 cold calls from the BB. V2 calls.

Flop 7 5 2

Checks to hero, hero bets, both Villains call.

Turn T

Villain 1 donks, Villain 2 calls, Hero 2!, V1 3!, V2 calls, Hero 4!, both call

That 4-bet was a tough decision. If it were HU w/ V1 I would be inclined to call down instead of capping but with the dead money from the donator going into the pot, I figured it was too great an opportunity to pass up.

Thoughts on this greatly appreciated.

River is the awful 2

Checked to me. I tanked and then bet. V1 raises, V2 folds, Hero folds.

Just felt like that had to be a full house 100% of the time.

Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

I pay him off. His line is very strong, but it's also bizarre. He is repping exactly one hand and the pot is huge.

welcome to the forums

not sure why the turn 4-bet would be a tough decision with the second nuts vs a fish and a spewbot (or even if it were just hu vs the spewbot)

i would not fold the river. other than that i like how you played it

sounds like pot size is appx $660 and at HU and u folded for $40 more ?? <owned>

easy 4bet on turn, and easy call on river.

NH. Except for the fold on the river...

The fold on the river is a large mistake. The fact that you tanked makes it larger.

Expert fold on the river, although I could never do it against that villain. How often do expertz take the c/r river bluff line anyway?

Thing is, I can't recall seeing someone XR bluff something like this on the river in a 3-way pot even once in the past 6 months. But once you hero fold then people will start making this bluff. So if I only get one hero fold (until the player pool cycles or everyone forgets I'm capable of folding big hands to a XR), I'd rather use it in an 8-10 bet pot than a 15 bet pot.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, at the point of the XR there were still 3 players in the pot.

Not often. Getting 21:1, and given that hero bets the river after having tanked, I think this is a clear call.

If you only beat bluffs you should def fold.

River bet is probably pretty bad vs villain depending on what you mean by "decent but a bit spewy"

If youre going to fold then dont bet.

Had to do it again today!

Villain is a ~40 year old asian woman who seems competent if somewhat passive.

Hero opens K J in MP, V 3! in CO, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop Q 5 6

Checked to V, she bets, BB calls, Hero calls (obv raising is an option, I chose to wait until the turn)

Turn Q

Checked to V, she bets, BB calls, Hero raises, V 3!, BB folds, Hero 4! trying to get max value out of AQ - V 5!, Hero folds.

Pretty sick that the only hand she could reasonably have is quads but who the hell 5-bets that turn with anything that is losing to a King hi flush.

No she was not a witness to the hand in the OP.

Pretty sure it's not just an option but the clearly, overwhelmingly right option.

This post immediately above nailed it:

If you think she's entirely straightforward, then why 4-bet? Are entirely straightforward people three-betting AQ there because they can't believe anyone would slowplay a flopped flush, even though everyone slowplays a flopped flush?

If she's not entirely straightforward then why 4! planning to fold?

Depending on preflop ranges, she could have A Q or A Q--twice as many combos as QQ.

All that said, folding probably isn't that awful in a vacuum--you're probably not good 2/19 of the time--but I'm sure your opponents have noticed that you're making these big laydownies. I hope you get good value inducing bluffs now.

I said this in another thread, but I am going to repeat it here.

If you are going to raise-fold, the time to do it isn't with the near-nuts.

Here are the two scenarios where you should raise-fold:

1. As a bluff, i.e., where you have no showdown value to begin with.
2. With a hand of moderate value, where you can conceivably get value from a portion of your opponent's range, but where your hand is so weak as to be worthless if there's a 3-bet.

My example of a category 2 raise-fold hand would be if you were calling down with a nut flush draw with A2 suited against a player who bet or raised a 9 high flop, the river comes an ace, and you raise. The point is to get value from a player who has a pair and puts you on a missed flush draw. However, given how crappy your kicker is and how scary the ace is, there's basically nothing the villain 3-bets that you beat, so you fold.

But DON'T DO THIS WITH MONSTER HANDS IN GIGANTIC POTS. Period. It's not the right move. The pot odds are way to high to justify the play, and you still have showdown value.

Instead, if you don't feel you can pay off a re-raise, don't put in the raise and call down.

You guys keep saying this but I have yet to see anyone give a convincing reason as to why.

If I have a hand that I think is ahead of villains range and will get paid off if i raise but which would clearly be drawing dead if I get re-raised, to me that is a clear raise/fold situation.

It's exploitable as hell but it's such a rare scenario that I don't think that matters. The vast majority of times I put in an extra raise I'm calling down, if not re-raising again myself. If people want to try to start bluffing me when I 3-bet them on the turn and river because they saw me make a big fold, I'm going to print money.

Other than it being exploitable, what is the reason not to do it? And please dont answer by saying 'because the pot is big and DON'T ****ING DO THAT' because that's not a valid reason why.

you got preflop right

i mean, the burden of proof is on you here. the strategy that you're espousing, by definition, is that of folding really strong hands in really big pots, when you're high up in your range and have pumped extra money in on the big streets. why is that the best approach?

It's only the best approach when it's 100% certain you are beat. That's rare in a huge pot with a near nut hand.

I think these two flush hands I have posted are good demonstrations of it though. There is simply no way I'm good in either hand. However - there are plenty of hands the Villains could have had that would have paid me off, instead of raising. So I miss value by not betting or raising.

Another way to look at it is that I'm exploiting exactly what you're telling me to do: people don't fold huge hands in huge pots. So if I think I might have them notched, I'm going to put in an extra bet or raise. But if they then come back over the top of me and it's clear to me that I'm notched, I save the extra bets.

It's not all that different from what was suggested above. I'm just doing it with stronger hands:

It's just as clear to me that the 5! meant my hand was toast as that 3! means the A2 is no good. I can't remember the last time I even saw a river 5-bet that wasn't a chopped pot. That's the nuts. Every time. A multi-way 3-bet is not the nuts every time and I saw value in raising it.

I have definitely turned hands like that first hand into a bluff if I'm villain against someone I think is capable of folding a flush. It doesn't have to work very often.

Opponents are going to make all kinds of adjustments to make your life difficult when they see you making these kinds of folds. You will find yourself in many spots where you make thin value bets and they raise and you don't know if you're inducing a bluff raise or paying off extra bets you shouldn't be losing. When you bet you need strong hands you can call down with or reraise to allow yourself to also bet fold the thin ones.

Let's say a generous person decided to donate dead money to the pot in that first hand after the river check raise. How much would he have to add before it becomes a call?

There seems to be a contradiction here. The bolded says you have to have strong hands to bet or re-raise. But before and after it you're talking about making thin value bets.

That's a really good and hard question.

Everything else being exactly the same and the money magically appearing after the raise had already been made:

I'm gonna go with like $5k.

That line just makes no sense whatsoever for anything other than a boat. If he had the nut flush he would have value bet or checked the river, not gone for the check raise.