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Originally Posted by phunkphish
This has been mentioned here before, and it's BS.
Have you read Newell's books? Are you calling them BS? They look at bots lines and interpret why it does what it does.
maybe off a bit, but certainly not bs. i haven't read newell's book, but i have read chen's. and sure there can be a few easy things to incorporate (as i'll note later in response to your posted examples), but major things with multiple adjustments/bucket changes needed definitely align with my point.
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Basic example: Hero BTN raises, BB defends. Flop comes A93r -- Bots have a low cbet for KK, QQ. Flop comes 456tt, bots have a much lower cbet across their entire range compared to other flops. Those are huge lessons people should be incorporating into their game. It doesn't take a genius or infinite memory to figure out why a bot does that.
agreed, that's actually where i started out thinking that my cbetting across the board was too high in some spots (lmp steals for example it was close to the bu steal cbet % which was clearly way too high. when i saw the increasing cbet % by position, that helped spark that change for me). so i'm not saying that it's impossible, but for highly specific and complex issues (not the easy one you point out here), it's not a good idea.
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I think its very possible for one bot to never limp SB, and another bot to have a limp SB range, and both bots to play close to GTO.
so here is where we part. i do not think that's easy to reconcile, nor do i think both bots are playing close to gto. that implies that there are TWO solutions very close to each other in terms of EV. i think the always raising bot vs. the sometimes limping bot will have a higher EV ceteris parabis (higher not by like 0.02 or something like that, more like 0.2-0.3, which is a lot).
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If you have no framework on what range to open SB v BB, a good bot's range is an excellent starting point.
again we agree. yes, that's an easy starting point. and again is where i learned quite a bit. but it's not a complex multi-street multi-bucket requiring spot like the opening a sb vs. always raising that same blind is.
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Since DD first mentioned bots, I'm assuming he finds them a useful resource. Hence, when I see a bot raising Q3o, it makes me wonder why DD is saying he folds Q6o.
i agree they are a useful resource. i can't explain why DD does what he does but i can tell you why i don't open Q3o despite bots doing it: you lose very little in positive EV (if it is positive) and reduce the difficulty in implementing your game proportionally by far far more. playing Q3o oop vs competent people is no fun. it's barely fun playing Q7o in that spot lol. so i'm folding it and i'm assuming DD folds it for similar reasons but i can't speak for him.