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K LHE tourney hand question K LHE tourney hand question

06-27-2014 , 09:25 PM
Day 2 of the $10K LHE tourney. I have around 23,000 in chips with blinds 600/1200, limits 1200/2400. Villain has lots of chips and is a good pro. The following is the fourth hand of the day:

Dealt JJ in hijack and raised. Button 3bet and I called.

Flop Ah 9d 3c. I check-raise and button calls.

Turn Ad. I bet and button calls.

River 9c. I bet, button raises, I fold.

Should I have check-called the river (A 9 3 A 9 board)? I was basically crippled after that hand; was it worth a crying call, as played?
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06-27-2014 , 10:36 PM
welcome to the forums

explaining/discussing your thought process behind your line (checkraising the flop) should be useful
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06-27-2014 , 11:14 PM
Thanks.

The flop (A 9 3, rainbow) felt like a check-raise-able flop with JJ! He had an above-average stack of chips at the time + was on the button + was up against an opponent with not a lot of ammo (but enough to get away from a hand and not feel the need to gamble right away), so he could 3bet fairly lightly there: KQ, KJs, KTs, JTs, QJ, 77, 88, and TT seem like the possibilities. (There's also KK and QQ, both of which could fold to a double-barrel turn & river bet.) I lose to AA, AK, AQ, AJ, and ATs; a flop check-raise helps me determine whether he's got one of those hands.

Him not 3betting the flop + the second Ace hitting on turn (A 3 9 A) gave me some confidence that I might just have the best hand with my JJ. If he calls the turn bet, though, then he's either got an Ace (I lose), or TT (I win), or KK (I could win if he folds river), or QQ (I could win if he folds river); if he raises here, then I fold.

Then a 9 double-paired the board on the river (A 9 3 A 9) and gave no opportunity for a backdoor flush.

Now that I think about my line here, I probably should have check-called the river, no? Or, is my entire thinking / line here just wrong?
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06-27-2014 , 11:26 PM
Or check-fold the river
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06-28-2014 , 01:44 AM
You got preflop right.

Edit: hit post too soon, trying to figure out where to start.
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06-28-2014 , 01:58 AM
I should have check-called the whole way?
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06-28-2014 , 02:14 AM
I actually like flop x/r against some villains here. A lot of people are too polarized when x/r on this flop. Not sure how showdown bound this vil will be in a tourney format, though.

As played, I definitely x/f that river. And I think I'd rather call down readless.
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06-28-2014 , 02:23 AM
I mean op's flop cr logic is basically to either "find out where he's at" or to get a small (and somewhat unlikely) set of 3 or six out hands to fold. Neither of those are a particularly good reason to cr the flop, especially given that 1) we have 10? bets or so so triple barreling is costly and more importantly 2) we're turning a hand with significant showdown value into a bluff.

I would argue that in this particular spot you should also call down with your weakest aces precisely because you are going to get the same approximate value from the made hands you beat/allow opponents to barrel bluffs.

For OP: An expert opponent is extremely unlikely to b3b this particular flop in position when they can just wait to raise the big bet on the turn for value. This also protects the weaker portions of their flop bet/call ranges; so deducing that they do not hold an ace based on lack of flop 3b is probably premature. The turn is kind of a good card for you in so much as it reduces the number of Ax combos your opponent could have, but it also means that KK and QQ are probably showing down (which, fwiw they were going to do anyways and trying to specifically bluff ppl off those hands in this spot is no beuno). It would also not be surprising for some villains to now delay their planned turn raise to till river.

Last edited by ILikeRocks; 06-28-2014 at 02:31 AM.
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06-28-2014 , 02:58 AM
I don't think I have a check raising range on this flop against most players. I think it's too hard to have any kind of balance in the spot and I generally like protecting my weaker peels by check-calling my strong hands with the intention to check-raise the turn.

As played, I think I prefer check-call on river to any other line because I think there is little value in a bet (TT is pretty much only hand that I think gets to this point and calls that we beat). I think I can maybe induce a few bluffs with counterfeited pairs and I've bloated the pot a bit with my action so I prefer check-call to check-fold. I do expect to see an ace with a kicker he didn't love quite a lot when I check-call here.
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06-28-2014 , 03:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond
I think it's too hard to have any kind of balance in the spot and I generally like protecting my weaker peels by check-calling my strong hands with the intention to check-raise the turn.

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You shouldn't have any weak peels in this situation. It's a tourney and not like were check calling this flop with J-10
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06-28-2014 , 03:48 AM
I am calling with any pair on this flop because I already have to fold so many unpaired hands. I would consider my weaker pair hands to be the weaker peels that I want to protect by also having strong hands in my check-calling range so he doesn't automatically barrel off his whole range on the turn and force me into a tough decision with what would be a fairly narrow check-calling range.

I don't think adding JT with a BDFD with the intention to semibluff some turns can be that horrible. I think the fact it's a tournament and most players seem less willing to take aggressive semibluffing action actually strengthens the credibility of the move.
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06-28-2014 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRocks
An expert opponent is extremely unlikely to b3b this particular flop in position when they can just wait to raise the big bet on the turn for value.
yes, agreed.
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06-30-2014 , 12:01 AM
If you have a x/r range on this flop JJ should be in it.
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06-30-2014 , 02:21 PM
Does anyone like 4 betting pf? I figure our hand smashes a fair amount of pro's 3 betting range here, no?
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06-30-2014 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KzrSoze
Day 2 of the $10K LHE tourney. I have around 23,000 in chips with blinds 600/1200, limits 1200/2400. Villain has lots of chips and is a good pro. The following is the fourth hand of the day:

Dealt JJ in hijack and raised. Button 3bet and I called.

Flop Ah 9d 3c. I check-raise and button calls.

Turn Ad. I bet and button calls.

River 9c. I bet, button raises, I fold.

Should I have check-called the river (A 9 3 A 9 board)? I was basically crippled after that hand; was it worth a crying call, as played?
IMO this is a spot we can't afford to play the hand like a cash game. We only have 8.5 BB on the flop and honestly I'm just calling down here, and very likely folding if a king hits because of our stack size. This is debatable with 8.5 BB on the flop, but I think 6 BB or less on the flop and folding to a king is a non-negotiatable. Your line is thin and we are basically forced to bet/fold river--because do you have anything weaker here? TT and that's about it. So maybe you can afford to then bet/call JJ in a cash game, because bet/folding TT should be enough combos. But, because we are in survival mode with 5.5 BB left at this point on the river, we really need to be bet/folding more because holding onto chips is that much more important.

Last edited by Breich; 06-30-2014 at 04:27 PM.
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07-01-2014 , 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breich
IMO this is a spot we can't afford to play the hand like a cash game. We only have 8.5 BB on the flop and honestly I'm just calling down here, and very likely folding if a king hits because of our stack size. This is debatable with 8.5 BB on the flop, but I think 6 BB or less on the flop and folding to a king is a non-negotiatable. Your line is thin and we are basically forced to bet/fold river--because do you have anything weaker here? TT and that's about it. So maybe you can afford to then bet/call JJ in a cash game, because bet/folding TT should be enough combos. But, because we are in survival mode with 5.5 BB left at this point on the river, we really need to be bet/folding more because holding onto chips is that much more important.
yes. I agree now. And, honestly, in a situation like this in a tournament, a check-fold on the flop probably isn't horrible here either. It just wasn't a great spot, and, as you said, holding onto chips is very important.

Thank you everyone!
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07-02-2014 , 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KzrSoze
...He could 3bet fairly lightly there: KQ, KJs, KTs, JTs, QJ, 77, 88, and TT seem like the possibilities.
I would hardly characterize the hands you listed as 3b'ing light. I would be opening HJ with 44+, and expect an aggressive BTN to iso 3b with 55+, many suited aces, and many worse SCs down to 67s.

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I lose to AA, AK, AQ, AJ, and ATs; a flop check-raise helps me determine whether he's got one of those hands. Him not 3betting the flop ...
A flop x/r does not determine anything. He will be calling the flop x/r with most of his continuing range. Him not 3b'ing flop doesn't mean crap. You've turned a showdown hand into a bluff -- this is bad. Consider which parts of his range you can get value from, and which hands you can bluff. You should be targeting the range you can get value from with this hands.

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Does anyone like 4 betting pf? I figure our hand smashes a fair amount of pro's 3 betting range here, no?
Not in a cash game, but in a tournament, it has merit. FE is so much more important than squeezing EV and accepting variance.

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I think I'd rather call down readless.
I would argue that in this particular spot you should also call down with your weakest aces...
I'm pretty sure call-down is bad given this flop and this turn. When we call this turn, we are announcing to the pro that we have a showdown hand. Very rarely at this point do we have a hand that folds to a 3rd barrel. Villain should see this, and play rivers perfectly against us. If villain is snug, I would x/c turn and x/f river. If villain is aggressive, I would plan to (x/r turn, decide river), or (x/c turn, donk river) with most of my range. Neither option is that appealing, but still preferable to (x/call turn, x river).
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07-03-2014 , 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
I would hardly characterize the hands you listed as 3b'ing light. I would be opening HJ with 44+, and expect an aggressive BTN to iso 3b with 55+, many suited aces, and many worse SCs down to 67s.



A flop x/r does not determine anything. He will be calling the flop x/r with most of his continuing range. Him not 3b'ing flop doesn't mean crap. You've turned a showdown hand into a bluff -- this is bad. Consider which parts of his range you can get value from, and which hands you can bluff. You should be targeting the range you can get value from with this hands.



Not in a cash game, but in a tournament, it has merit. FE is so much more important than squeezing EV and accepting variance.



I'm pretty sure call-down is bad given this flop and this turn. When we call this turn, we are announcing to the pro that we have a showdown hand. Very rarely at this point do we have a hand that folds to a 3rd barrel. Villain should see this, and play rivers perfectly against us. If villain is snug, I would x/c turn and x/f river. If villain is aggressive, I would plan to (x/r turn, decide river), or (x/c turn, donk river) with most of my range. Neither option is that appealing, but still preferable to (x/call turn, x river).

Wow... Good analysis. You're right.

Like your name too
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