Hi guys,

My needs are somewhat similar to this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/48...hlight=4barrel

(Yes, I searched quite a bit before posting. As my needs are fairly specific, I'm hoping a new thread is ok.)

Running multiple VMs (VMware Workstation Pro), and PT4 and HEM2 at the same time.

The main differences are that I am ok with a desktop, and need to be able to push 4 2560x1440 monitors without any hiccups / slowdowns. I have 4 Dell U2717D if the model matters.

I was thinking I would run 3 Samsung 950 Pros. One for the host OS, one for my main VM, and one for my databases and my 2nd VM. The 2nd VM often isn't running and doesn't have to be when my databases are being used. I use it to isolate for security reasons (click sketchy links, random personal web browsing). I think this makes a 4th drive complete overkill (I know some of you will say 3 is already overkill).

So I need 3 PCIe slots minimum. If this severely limits my options or increases my cost by a very large amount, I could probably make it work with only 2 drives. I can buy and install the drives myself, don't need a manufacturer that offers them.

I need help selecting a manufacturer. I was thinking Dell as I have experience with their Pro support, and they're at least not awful. Not 100% set on Dell at all and definitely open to suggestions. System reliability is extremely important to me. Great support (particularly next-day and in-home service) is also pretty valuable as days off are very expensive.

Does anyone have opinions on Maingear? Clearly overpriced generally but possibly worth it for my specific needs?

I'd rather not build my own, but am not completely ruling it out if it will result in a way higher-quality and more stable build.

I also need help selecting system / configuring.

I don't have a very solid idea of what I need as far as a graphics card/cards. Would it make sense to have more than one? Are there configuration issues when doing so, or do they automatically work together efficiently?

I don't game but my understanding is that this is about as graphics "hungry" of a system as you can get without gaming (or rendering 3D models or whatever the geniuses do.)

64GB of RAM. Yes, I could get by with 32 but it's not worth capping my VMs at ~8 as cheap as RAM is these days.

This will obviously be a very expensive build as far as poker systems go. I don't have a set budget but I do appreciate good value. I am willing to pay a premium for stability and to make sure my graphics and VM needs are clearly covered. At the same time, I have no interest in complete overkill and do have a family to take care of

Super rough guess: I see no way this should come to over 4k but would be surprised if I can get it for less than 2k, if that helps at all.

Apologies if I'm leaving anything obvious out.

Thanks!

No reason to get multiple graphics cards. 4~5k is about right. The bulk of the costs are in the NVMe, CPU, and motherboard. The CPU and Motherboard upgrades you need (want?) are expensive because Intel simply has no competition in that range now. The CPU and MB alone will cost you 1000~2000, depending on what models you pick. The 3x NVMe drives you want will be ~750 even if you grab low capacity models. 64gb RAM is another 500 or so.

Start here.
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/F..._-_Black_Mamba
Cyberpower also promises some overclocking. That's why I linked Cyberpower instead of Dell. You do pay a premium for every part because they will overclock them but I think given your intended uses, it's worth it.

You want high core count. Given your use case, 10 core actually might be justified but there is a big price jump between 8 and 10 core. Given your price point your sweet spot is probably 6 or 8 core.

Get a cheaper motherboard. I am partial to Asus (only brand I've known and it's treated me well) but consensus seems to be every major brand is reliable nowadays) but this won't save you much.

64GB RAM is likely overkill. 32GB, allocating 10gb or so per VM should be fine but I get it if you want to have more headroom. That said, that head room will cost you a little over 550 and probably pushes you close to 5k.

Unless you're running games, there is no reason to get multiple cards. Any card on that page will support 3x 2560x1440 displays as long as connections are available. You save ~1000 here relative to base configuration.

3xSamsung NVMe is the right idea but probably out of your price range. I would just be smart about it and partition the base 400gb Intel NVMe card and run your DB/OS off that. Upgrade that to 800gb if you have to. Then get a 1TB regular SSD.

That's pretty much it. The final price tag should be just about over 4k. Because of your price range and Dell's allergy to overclocking, I think Cyberpower is your best bet. You're paying a premium for Cyberpower and the liquid cooling but the overclocking they promise is substantial and adds 1 or 2 years to your system's future proofing at least. If you get a similarly specced machine elsewhere, you probably can save anywhere between 500 and 1000 but you lose the substantial overclocking.

I have been looking at that same exact model for a gaming/excel modelling PC to replace an aging i7-3930k machine (also OCed Cyberpower, been with me for years) I use now.

Configuration#: 1HY3WY (http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/saved/1HY3WY)

Intel® Core™ i7-6900K Eight-Core 3.20GHz 20MB Intel Smart Cache LGA2011-V3
ASUS X99-A/U3.1 ATX W/ Intel GbE LAN, 4x Gen3 PCIe x16, 2x PCIe x1, 1x M.2, 8x SATA 6Gb/s
AMD Radeon R9 380X 4GB 16X PCIe 3.0 Video Card
64GB (16GBx4) DDR4/2800MHz GSKILL Ripjaws V

512GB Samsung 850 PRO Series SATA-III 6.0Gb/s SSD - 550MB/s Read & 520MB/s Write
512GB Samsung 950 PRO Series PCIe NVMe M.2 SSD - 2500MB/s Read & 1500MB/s Write
400GB Intel® SSD 750 Series NVME PCIe SSD - 2500MB/s Read & 1200MB/s Write

Corsair Obsidian Series 450D Mid Tower Gaming Case w/ USB 3.0 & Full Side-Panel Window
Corsair Hydro H100i V2 240mm Liquid CPU Cooling System
500 Watts - EVGA 80 PLUS Bronze Certified Power Supply
LG 14X Internal Blu-ray Burner, BD-RE, 3D Playback DVD+RW Combo Drive
INTERNAL 12in1 Flash Media Reader/Writer

Windows 10 Pro (64-bit Edition)
Ultimate OC (Ultimate Overclock 30% or more)
Professional Wiring for All WIRING
3-YEAR [3 Year Labor, 1 Year Parts] LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT

$3950


Disclaimer: Not meant as a serious recommendation, just playing around with the config options to see what you can get for 4k. Looks decent though.

I really appreciate the help.

As far as the cores, am I considering 10-core systems to assign more than 1 processor/core within the VMware Workstation settings? Tbh, I don't know how to optimize my VM settings at all and maybe that's where I should begin in order to get a better understanding of what I need.



I'm a little overwhelmed by all my config options. grizy, you're saying any card would work, but there are some 1 GB cards on that page. I realize I could push the resolution with a lot of different cards, but doesn't my constant VM use drastically change my needs? I run HUDs within my VMs as well, they aren't just secondary systems for one or two programs.

It seems very difficult to research these cards online as the focus is always on gaming.

In the past, I haven't done much more within the VMware settings than assign more RAM and hope for the best. This gives good performance even on my Precision 5510 (= XPS 15), but I'm concerned it won't once I start pushing a couple HUDs across both the host and the VM (and drag windows around a 14-million pixel screen).

I was under the impression that my graphics card was more of an issue than my processor, but it seems I may have been off (maybe way off?).

I can go all the way down to a card that's almost free:

AMD Radeon R5 230 1GB GDDR3 Video Card (Single Card) [-1120]

But for "only" $700 I can have a single 12GB card and zero concerns and no need to backtrack and change later after I realize I scaled back too far:

GeForce® GTX Titan X 12GB GDDR5 (Maxwell)[VR Ready] (Single Card) [-337] [Dads and Grads Mega Sales - $100 Instant Off]

Is the issue that my VMs don't actually use the graphics card directly due to being VMs, and just use some of the RAM assigned to them as graphics memory instead? (See bottom of below screenshot.)



I apologize, I know I'm making the tech-lovers cringe that I'm looking at $4k+ desktops and don't even understand how my system is interacting with itself.

As far as pricing, I was just taking a guess. If I should spend 5k instead of 4 then that's what I'll spend, I thought I'd be hitting clear overkill at that point that's all.

I should have mentioned that I don't use large databases like 4barrel and can get by with 1x 256 (host) and 2x 128 (VM and databases). I'm sure grizy's suggestion of only 2 SSDs would work too. More concerned with the processor and graphics card decision, as that is where I'm truly lost.

Thank you.

For comparison's sake, what Dell model would I want to look at?

I think Dell is only using 6 core-8 core i7 non-Xeon chips in their Alienware machines.

Something like this:

http://www.dell.com/us/p/alienware-area51-r2/pd

Looks like it's about same price as the Cyberpower but with fewer features.

You could look at the Optiplex machines with Xeon chips too but those have significantly lower clock speeds. For your needs, the enthusiast class chips are about right.

On Video card:
You're right. Look for cards with at least 2GB RAM. That's more than enough to drive 3 2k monitors. Graphics card isn't bottle necking the refresh. 2d draw/redraw is just too trivial both in terms of VRAM and GPU usage.

On VMWare core allocation: VMWare by default dynamically allocates cores as needed. There is some overhead but with only two VMs you shouldn't have to. But with more cores it will be a lot easier for VMWare to allocate.

VM Ware doesn't use the graphics cards directly, not by default.

with this level of thing you don't want to be trusting it to dell, build it yourself or pay someone independent to do so

That's horrendous advice. It's the other way around. This is not a hobby machine where you can afford to deal with separate warranties for component parts. You need a single point of service, preferably on site, for when things go wrong

My point is more that I wouldn't trust any company that predominantly caters to the mass market when OP is wanting a specialised machine. There must be specialists that can build what the OP wants to a much more useful spec and still have the size to offer the level of support he needs should the **** hit the fan

No, just no.

Even Cyberpower and Pugetsystems don't offer onsite service and they are as big as you are going to get for a "specialist."

Line check please?

http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/saved/1HYA3R

Would like input on all / the most important stuff, also some areas where I had questions/thoughts below. Thank you. You've been incredibly helpful.

Good cooling / fan selection? Left it on the default. I'm close to clueless on this one.

Is there a good reason I'd want to go with the (more expensive) 8x8 option for the RAM?

Good power supply choice? (Also left it on the default.)

I realize the 3rd slower SSD isn't great, but there was no [None] option, so it was $15 and I could potentially have a use for it at some point. My intention is to only use the Samsung 950 and the Intel 750.

Are the fan controllers with temperature display actually helpful in some way?

Professional cable wiring for $19 seems to make sense, unless this will likely make it more difficult to upgrade / troubleshoot in the future?

Total $4,995.

You can downgrade the motherboard (Asus X99-E for example) and video card (Asus GTX 960 4GB has 3 displayports and more than enough RAM) and shave off a bit over 500.

No reason to get 8x8.

That useless SSD is annoying. I'd talk to Cyberpower about ditching it. If not, I'd dedicate it to the VM that's not running PostgreSQL.

Get the professional wiring. It improves air flow and this machine is not going to get upgraded for 4 or 5 years.

The specs look fine otherwise.

That said, you should think about how much you value onsite service. The Alienware I linked to earlier will not perform as well but Alienware does offer onsite service. The only CyberPC I have has not required any service so I can't speak to their level of service.

PS: I really don't think rest of your use case benefits much from NVMe speed to be honest. If I were you, I'd do 3x regular SSD per VM/Host and just run the postgreSQL off the PCIe NVMe drive (intel or Samsung). I think that makes more sense for you than doubling up on NVMe. But price differential not that big so go for it.

Ah, I forgot to mention my logic on the motherboard. I did see what you said earlier about the motherboard, and I think you're right that the one I chose isn't necessary. I decided to stick with it due to the dual-LAN and Wi-Fi specs.

I definitely considered the Alienware and appreciate the suggestion. I spent 30 minutes pricing it out and researching it earlier. Dell rep told me that I could go to 64 GB of RAM (wanted to get him to say it so I could return it if he was wrong), but there are conflicting reports online.

It also looked like it still used last-gen processors?

I absolutely value on-site service and have had fairly decent experiences with Dell Pro support.

I think I'd be more inclined to go with one of their Precision Workstations if I went the Dell route, but you didn't seem too excited about the Xeons for my purposes?

Also, you've mentioned 3x monitors a couple times now. It's probably worth noting that I have 4 2560x1440 and am looking to get a stand and push all 4 from this desktop.

The Xeons are much slower than the i7 6xxx-k/e chips even without overclock. With overclock, the overclocked the chips are much faster.

The other Asus board I linked (255 cheaper) also has the dual LAN port. (it's literally the same spec on that point). At least go down to ROG STRIX X99, which as the same wireless and lan ports you cited. Saving you $155. Motherboard is not where you want to spend your money on. More useless features = more potential points of failure. Get the cheapest one with the features you need and no more. Also,

See this:
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/tech...m-requirements

GTX 960 supports up to 4 displays with a maximum resolution of 10240x1600. It's basically what you are looking for.

Final side note. There is some work being done on accelerating PostgreSQL with nVidia cards with CUDA/OpenCL instruction sets. The progress is slow but very promising. You might see something that works within the 4-5 life span of this machine.

For example, maybe the 7910 with this processor:

Intel® Xeon® Processor E5-2630 v3 (8C, 2.4GHz, Turbo, HT, 20M, 85W) [Included in Price]

I'm fairly certain the Cyberpower I spec'ed out IS overkill for me, it was just hard to not justify some of the upgrades when I was hovering around $4k regardless. As you said, I will have this for years.

The other thing about overclocking is, even with a warranty, in theory I'm increasing the chance of issues? I guess this might be a small enough concern that I can effectively ignore it?

Stability and uptime are very important to me, arguably moreso than performance (as long as I'm still meeting that hard-to-define minimum standard, if that makes any sense).

So maybe Dell's support is too valuable to ignore. They definitely market their Pro lines that way (stability, uptime, support), and I've also had very good recent experiences with their support when dealing with my Precision 5510 so far.

I did research Cyberpower's support. Fairly well-reviewed overall, but everything does have to be sent in after diagnosis.

Saw your last post now.

I hear you, but I guess there's a bit of a gap between what you think I need from the processor and what I think I need.

Is the Xeon about half as fast? That sounds about right, and while half as fast sounds really bad, I'm not sure anything I'm running actually would suffer that much? Launch times would still be ridiculous with the SSDs, no?

My HUDs run even on my 13" MacBook Pro (although not within a VM, admittedly). I guess that's also why I'm more about the NVMe. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought HUDs were mostly bottlenecked by the drive, not the processor.

Are you mostly focused on processors due to the fact that I'm running through a couple VMs?

Thank you again for thinking through this with me.

Edit: I hear you on the motherboard and will readjust there (if I go Cyberpower), thank you.

Don't get me wrong. I'd much rather have the Cyberpower processor. Was just trying to see if I could find a way to sneak into Dell's stable Pro Support line.

Maybe there's another company with good support and on-site service? Not necessarily best of both worlds, but meeting in the middle?

Where's the new Mac Pro when you need it (my office is super close to an Apple store)

The Optiplex Xeons really are indeed about half as fast. You'd do just as well, if not better, with a more typical i7-6700k machine.

Yes, I am focused on processor and core count because you're running 2 VMs.

If you really want pro level support and best stability possible (we're really talking about very small differences here, differences typically only relevant for data centers or rendering machines), you probably should wait for the Skylake Xeons with 8 cores which should come out early next year.

I don't know any custom system builder with onsite service. Even if they did, I suspect they'll be working with contractors that don't have the parts to replace anything. You won't get the Dell level service where the techs (who, to be fair, are probably same contractors) actually bring potentially needed parts.

Intel® Core™ i7-5960X (8-cores, 20MB Cache, Overclocked up to 4.0 GHz w/ Turbo Boost)

This is the Alienware. I think I'm looking at about 80% of the speed of the Cyberpower processor I posted?

Maybe getting this, getting the 64 GB RAM to work, and putting in my own drives is my best option after all.

Edit: You make a really good point about the parts and having to wait and deal with some downtime anyway. Sigh. Can't you just choose for me

Puget Systems seems to have contracted with an onsite service provider and the brand is very well reviewed, both on support and reliability. I have never bought from them but I heard good things from people, mostly people who work with video rendering.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/configu...0301,19992,183

Nearly identically specced to what we're talking about other than no additional drives yet. You can get 3x PCIe drive here.

https://www.pugetsystems.com/onsite_service.php

You have to call them about getting onsite technical support.

One thing I like about what I see on that page is they ship the return labels with the new parts. It's not about the cost of return shipping. It's the fact they don't have to inspect the part first before they ship you a new one.

I'd get the Puget. And I think I will do the same in a few months after I move into my new apartment.

I wouldn't get the Alienware because I don't want to mess with a custom designed Alienware case trying to install new components. I don't think it will be a problem but I don't want to give Dell excuses to not honor warranty claims either.

Just to be sure, even without the onsite service, I'd get the Puget or CyberPower.

Going with almost exactly what grizy suggested from Puget (thank you!)

Can anyone recommend a stand for the 4x Dell U2717D? Preferably in a 2x2 config.

I found this, but can't confirm if it will support the display size:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...4&sku=A7741078

Humanscale doesn't seem to want to return my phone calls, probably since I'm not filling a 100-unit office building

Dell recommended this:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...4&sku=A7893228

but tbh it looks pretty mediocre.

Any help would be really appreciated.

I used Ergotron arms when I used more monitors and never had any issues. But honestly I have never heard of people having trouble with their monitor arms so I suspect even the cheaper ones are very sturdy.

But after spending 3 or 4k on monitors (large monitors were way more expensive then) paying extra was good for peace of mind.