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Old 12-25-2012, 03:02 PM   #16
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by bobg3 View Post
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Pretty sure I'm just trying to be provocative.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:43 PM   #17
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

As far as exorbitantly taxing luxury items, thats fine but we'll need a consensus on what is necessary vs luxury, and likely all it will acheive is to depress those markets. If you think it's a good idea, why do you care what and how much others have? Have you considered that this zero-sum sort of thinking could actually harm the economy?
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:21 PM   #18
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by FoldnDark View Post
As far as exorbitantly taxing luxury items, thats fine but we'll need a consensus on what is necessary vs luxury, and likely all it will acheive is to depress those markets. If you think it's a good idea, why do you care what and how much others have? Have you considered that this zero-sum sort of thinking could actually harm the economy?
So your answer is the poor, those constantly seeking sustenance, should be concerned with the integrity of the rich because it's in their best interest -- an outdated belief structure.



Lets talk about Paris Hilton. Say P-Hil has 50 Million dollars. She isn't investing this money, she got it for being famous, lets say we take this money and give it to the third world.

- Sure, doing so would be immoral. But would it be more immoral than not doing so?
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:14 PM   #19
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
So your answer is the poor, those constantly seeking sustenance, should be concerned with the integrity of the rich because it's in their best interest -- an outdated belief structure.



Lets talk about Paris Hilton. Say P-Hil has 50 Million dollars. She isn't investing this money, she got it for being famous, lets say we take this money and give it to the third world.

- Sure, doing so would be immoral. But would it be more immoral than not doing so?
Explain to me how protecting individual property rights is outdated, and how doing what you suggest would solve anything long term.
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:31 PM   #20
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Explain to me how protecting individual property rights is outdated, and how doing what you suggest would solve anything long term.
It's funny how people wana solve long term problems by robing people that have (rich) or just forcing them to do **** with their money (taxing excessively in the higher end - see France). ****ing bunch of liberal hipy hipsters. If you are so smart make value to society and money will go your way so you can solve world problems.

Merry Christmas


Oh yea, @masque de Z you're so ****ing wrong in your post I can't even begin to address the issues. Maybe after Christmas.

fwiw I watched Gary Vaynerchuk so a lot more cursing then usual. I'm A/B testing it out to see if it has any merit.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:38 PM   #21
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Oh yea, @masque de Z you're so ****ing wrong in your post I can't even begin to address the issues. Maybe after Christmas.
Bring it!

Did you feel the need to attack me this way without any argument because it couldnt wait when you had them??? Cant even begin ??? Really?

Robing people??? You mean forcing the true robbers of wealth of this planet (= resources+the work of people+opportunity loss) to work like the rest of the planet producing actually something useful, instead of having the others work for them doing almost nothing good for the most part, other than investing their money in all kinds of manipulative plans and even perfectly legal effective pyramid schemes. There is an endless series of ways the rich (but not all of them clearly) make money by doing nothing or even by messing up things for the others. Why is that good for society???

Do not allow what you guys choose to do in your lives in terms of education and career (ie business schools, economics etc) to turn you into the same hypocrites that you work for for the most part. I had the same chance too at Stanford business school that i took classes for fun and chose not to participate in the "crime" that places like GS for example engage relentlessly bankrupting the very society that made them, using quants to create for them the perfect intelligent plans to cannibalize the very country that made them.

You will not find a greater supporter of western ideals of freedom democracy and respect for the individual than me. It is because i seriously dislike communism and the hypocrite socialists in Europe that what i gradually propose and eventually will complete in a big project have absolutely no relation to established left and in fact its a solid hope for capitalism to survive in a form that is more ethical and more supportive of democracy and avoid the total collapse in the hands of angry masses.

The rich need to start behaving properly and most importantly they need to start behaving in ways that will make them more money and offer them more true value for their lives than their current behavior results to (they lack vision allowing near term exploitation ideas to deprive them and society at large from a much larger gain), the governments need to stop being ran by corrupt career election begging aholes and the poor need to be given the opportunity to rise up to their responsibility to work productively and change their lives the right way with work, strong education, culture and ethical effort which can only be possible if society cares to give them the right paths for quality life progress and job offerings. A welfare state that taxes the hard working rich and rewards the lazy is the last thing i have in mind. I want to reward brilliance, good work and ethical conduct. But i also want all of us to work together to improve society in an organized not random manner (that our problems deserve), not exploit it as part of our lives. And our $#%$ing world of today does all it can to avoid exactly that in the hands of the corrupt powerful that are lazy and teach their pathetic kids to do drugs, party, engage in sexual exhibitionism and a substance free life and at the very least simply learn how to manage their money to not lose it applying the same nasty methodology their parents designed and embraced avoiding true work and true quality output.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:53 AM   #22
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

Are you saying the US system sucks, but slightly less than the rest? Most of what you describe sounds awesome. I think fusion-powered levitating shoes sound great too. Now if you can manage to get us closer to acheiving either I'll be greatly in your debt. How can I help?
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:48 AM   #23
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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You don't agree with today's competition law and how it's enforced? It's making competition a little nicer.
Main point: I'm fine with the way things currently are for the most part.

I'm not sure what you might mean by enforcement. There isn't any.

The only things I would change would be reducing the number and complexities of the rules and make breaking them a capital offense and step up inforcement efforts on the remaining rules.

Also, I'd make it a capital offense for patent clerks to give patents to anything other than a completely new idea.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #24
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
So your answer is the poor, those constantly seeking sustenance, should be concerned with the integrity of the rich because it's in their best interest -- an outdated belief structure.



Lets talk about Paris Hilton. Say P-Hil has 50 Million dollars. She isn't investing this money, she got it for being famous, lets say we take this money and give it to the third world.

- Sure, doing so would be immoral. But would it be more immoral than not doing so?
By what standard? What moral rule allows you to take property from the rich that doesn't allow others to take property from you? The rich are infinitely better at stealing than you are, they'll always win by those rules so maybe it's better to try and ingrain the idea in people that stealing is wrong.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:00 AM   #25
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by Hector Cerif View Post
Lets talk about Paris Hilton. Say P-Hil has 50 Million dollars. She isn't investing this money, she got it for being famous, lets say we take this money and give it to the third world.

- Sure, doing so would be immoral. But would it be more immoral than not doing so?
Almost certainly far more immoral.

The main problem you have is you aren't offering alternatives. We have a system and you have to offer a different system before we can begin to make a moral choice. All you have offered is a trite soundbite.

When you offer the system with the necessary power structures then most likely it will be fairly obvious why its morally inferior, not least because its outcomes will not be what your soundbite suggests.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:35 PM   #26
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Almost certainly far more immoral.

The main problem you have is you aren't offering alternatives. We have a system and you have to offer a different system before we can begin to make a moral choice. All you have offered is a trite soundbite.

When you offer the system with the necessary power structures then most likely it will be fairly obvious why its morally inferior, not least because its outcomes will not be what your soundbite suggests.
A reasonable estate and gift tax without loop holes along with a progressive tax system without loopholes would probably do reasonably well.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:53 PM   #27
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
A reasonable estate and gift tax without loop holes along with a progressive tax system without loopholes would probably do reasonably well.
I prefer a reasonable system of wholesale redistribution without loopholes.

or even a reasonable system of confiscating the lives of people who believe in stuff like end of the world predictions, without loopholes.*

*was I the only one with a sneaking hope I might die on 21st dec** and get to mutter some final words about climbing out of windows and fairy cakes?

** i dont mean the only one hoping chezlaw would die.

Last edited by chezlaw; 12-28-2012 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:17 AM   #28
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Originally Posted by FoldnDark View Post
That somehow the super rich are preventing me from chasing my dreams and building my own paradise. It is simply not the case.
Seems almost meaningless to define things this way though. Like if your dream is to own a lemonade stand and rent a 1br apartment for your family, then yeah, I guess it's true. But there are almost certainly things you could aspire to do that would be met by heavy resistance from the super rich, or at least you'd be at large disadvantage to someone with those resources.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:43 AM   #29
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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I prefer a reasonable system of wholesale redistribution without loopholes.
Was this purely to segue* into the next bit, or is there something somwhat serious in the statement?

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or even a reasonable system of confiscating the lives of people who believe in stuff like end of the world predictions, without loopholes.*
I think a reasonable case could be made for forcing people to live up to their promise of the end of their lives. Probably confiscate them twice if they've continued to contribute to their retirement plans.

I think leniency could be possible in the Dec. 21st folk's case. They did offer a reasonable societal benefit of annoying astronomers who were forced to explain in great detail what a how historically world ending "solstices" are, and also for annoying Mayan culturalists.

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*was I the only one with a sneaking hope I might die on 21st dec** and get to mutter some final words about climbing out of windows and fairy cakes?
A decent plan for the end of the world. Mine is slightly more clever and involves me either (depending on the particular circumstances) either being pleasantly unaware of the circumstances (least funny, but probably for the best) or yelling "weeee!!!!" or saying "I blame society" or (after making <insert exhaling last breath dying sort of sound that people make when dying in movies here> sound), pausing for just a little bit then saying "just because I went <insert exhaling last breath dying sort of sound that people make when dying in movies here> didn't mean that I was dead" <pause> <insert real exhaling last breath dying sort of sound here>**

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** i dont mean the only one hoping chezlaw would die.
Of course. No particular humor in that. As you can see from the above, I have made allowances for the specific instance of one particular btm2 dying.

I'm fairly certain that either yours or my "weeee!!!" is probably the correct thing to do.

*I mean that word in the loosest of senses. Something approaching "nothing at all like a 'segue.'"

**The problem with these is that I only got one shot to get it right. Crying wolf about these things kills any sense of humor in them. In particular, the last one requires nearly perfect timing.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:46 AM   #30
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Re: Why should I care about your private property rights?

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Seems almost meaningless to define things this way though. Like if your dream is to own a lemonade stand and rent a 1br apartment for your family, then yeah, I guess it's true. But there are almost certainly things you could aspire to do that would be met by heavy resistance from the super rich, or at least you'd be at large disadvantage to someone with those resources.
Makes sense. If my dream is to become the richest man on earth, other men with the same dream would compete. More modest dreams, like say a spouse, house, two kids, couple mistresses, maybe a boat are very within reach to most everyone who apply themselves in the US. And most could acheive much more if they desire.

I think it is reasonable to compare what type of life any average person could build on his own without any help from a society to what is he is capable in that society. If the latter is at least as good, then the society is moral. I'm convinced the rich in my society are not preventing me from reaching that level of acomplishment. In fact, the goods and services, employment opportunities (and customers if I choose to run my own business) available to me as a result of this society give me a much greater chance of realizing my dreams than without it.
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