It's interesting to me how cultural this discussion is (particularly centered on Western ways of thinking).

Not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but keep in mind that what "cheating" is and how immoral it is varies wildly by culture.

For example, in South Korea, your high school grades impact which University you get into, and which University you get into controls your job prospects for the rest of your life.

In South Korea, it is very common to plead, bribe, and beg your way to higher grades. In one particular case a friend of mine went to her professor to ask that her "B" be changed to an "A." The professor said, "I can only give out so many As, so if you want one, you need to find another student to switch with you." She did, paid the other student some money, and the two of them went and got their grades switched.

While not a celebrated part of the culture, everyone knows it happens and accepts it. It's seen as part of the system, something everyone does if they want to get ahead, sort of how American culture views social networking.

For some more innocent looking examples, it is 100% okay for students to copy answers from other students on homework and class assignments. (What often happens is one or two of the smartest kids get the answers and share it around the class.) This is because finding the right answer isn't valued, but having the right answer is.

Another time while I was teaching there, I was responsible for giving students an English exam. One teacher was insistent that I give the students all the answers to the exam, because if I didn't, some of them might get poor grades. When I refused, she got a copy of the exam for herself, did the exam, and gave the students her exam to copy and memorize (it's kind of cute when an entire class of students turns in identical answers down to the word to short essay questions like "Where is your favorite place to visit? Why?" and "What is your dream job?") .

The idea that her actions could even be interpreted as cheating never entered her mind; she was simply making sure her students got a good grade.

Grunching at your grunch. Some people always strive for more. Many are quite satisfied with what they have.

Once you reach a certain age, if you are fortunate, you may decide that being comfortable is sufficient and that slouching about is better than striving for more.

The rest of what you said I agree with.

Thanks for sharing your experience, most interesting.

I personally did not cheat because I didn't need it and didn't want to get caught. But it was a pure cost-benefit analysis, morality never entered my mind. Also, I did help my friends plan their cheating strategy and encouraged them cheating when I thought it would be best (e.g. Friend did not study for test).

(I assumed academia means school settings?)

Authority taught you cheating was immoral. 'Don't run from your slave master because (your) god will hate you, it's not different.' Authority cheats you everyday and teaches you its wrong to cheat back. Is it immoral, or does authority want you to think its immoral? The question for this thread is a wrong question imo. Its conditioning, and I'm willing to bet its remnants of Christianity, built from a school system and tradition tied into its teachings. At least thats the way it is on my continent.

I cheated like crazy in high school, I also tutored a dyslexic student for a year and a half.

This post left me scratching my head. In what way, for example, does a middle school math teacher "cheat you every day?" This is an example of an adult trying to give a child knowledge that will serve and help them later in life. I fail to understand how advising a child not to cheat is cheating or screwing them in some way.

I kind of read your post with a tone of,

"My dad told me not to lick that frozen flag pole."

"Man..... he's just trying to control you, man. He just doesn't want you to lick that flag pole because he wants to have control over your life. Lick that flag pole, dude. Be free."

I do think it's fair to question the motives of those around you. But to start with the baseline idea that everyone's motives are self-serving and nefarious is not only incorrect, it's going to hold you back significantly in this life.

Your post implies that cheating is a good idea simply because authority tells you not to do it, and doing the opposite of whatever someone in authority tells you to do is a good thing.

Is it not possible that the goals of someone in authority might line up (however coincidentally) with what is also best for you?

You'll disagree with my answers because you were brought up by that middle school teacher.

I see it as an example of a person raised by authority, becoming authority, and teaching authority. Under the guise of 'help', when this person (teacher) has probably never truly asked themselves what 'help' is. Or they ask themselves but they get their answer in terms of authority.

I didn't mean to suggest the teacher is the authority. Authority is not really a person but an ignorance that man accepts. The teacher is the vehicle but they are also a victim of it.


The tone I get from you is we were created to slaughter each other, and that it makes sense. I know I'm being radical but I think this is not how this world is meant to be and I think its silly that rational people have 'rationalized' it.

I would later argue that starting with any baseline at all is the real mistake.

No I don't want to say that, what I'm saying is authority tells you that to go against authority is immoral. We need to make decisions that are not based on authority, and we don't know how because we are conditioned not to.

This is how quickly I can disagree with a persons entire paradigm, you assume goals are not bad. I'm not saying they are bad, but its possible they are, it is authority that says they are important.

I don't think there's any way to continue this conversation without taking the thread on a severe derail.

It appears to me that you've set up a belief system for yourself where there's functionally no way for a human being with more knowledge, wisdom, and responsibility to teach a human being with less of those things, without dominating them and imposing their own will and desires on the "weaker" student, and all learning and human knowledge is suspect and dismissable on the grounds that it is a control mechanism.

Maybe there's another thread where this conversation is better suited.

The quality of someone's character is judged by how they operate when nobody is looking...



Ps1: Have you guys looked at the honor code at Stanford i linked in prior post?

Ps2: I suggest if you have time to watch an avg but interesting in theme movie like "inhale",2010. I already know what some of you would do in the situation of the movie and i am not talking only about the father...

Totally agree. This is the reason to be moral even when its otherwise +ev to cheat/steal - someone very important to us is always looking.

(OT Its also the reason we know many so called religous people dont really believe in god as they clearly dont genuinely believe anyone else is looking)

+1000

But, that doesn't imply in any way anything about cheating in and of itself.

Some do not live internally or externally by rigid rules. I am sure you generally agree that nuance is not your specialty.

Also, it isn't particularly useful, as the best we can say is that the quality of someone's character is judged by how they operate when they are sure no one else is looking but are incorrect.

And what chez said.

i did a massive amount of cheating in high school. math came easy so didn't cheat at that but everything else other than english (just did really bad or failed english classes). i don't remember actually studying once in the entire 4 years. i would cut out cue-card size pieces of paper and spend an hour or more writing out extremely tiny words, lists, science formulas, definitions, everything to prepare for a test/exam. never got caught somehow but it definitely hindered me in life later on with regards to work ethic.

for me i just didn't have the attention span to study. it was impossible to learn the information because it was that boring. i think it was some sort of mental block mixed with apathetic feelings towards school as well, but wanting to avoid summer school at all costs.

there's tons of reasons people cheat.

interestingly i had a teacher that tought business classes who gave out easy 90+ to everyone, who would actually leave the class during a test for half an hour, basically letting the class cheat. it was weird but awesome and he's the only reason i got into university.

You didn't by any chance happen to attend Wexford Collegiate in Toronto did you?

nope

People cheat because the reward is reasonably high (good grades), and the stakes are so low (unlikely to be caught or punished). Colleges used to take cheating extremely seriously, with guilty parties usually risking expulsion and the potential end of an academic career (and corresponding loss of future opportunities), as that record was likely to follow you to any other colleges. Today, the worst that usually happens to a student caught cheating is an F on the assignment (not even the course overall!) and a possible hearing that results in academic probation, and that's in the rare instance a student is caught.

And hey, if you do get kicked out for cheating, there are a host of for-profit colleges (ie University of Phoenix) that don't give two ****s and will gleefully give you a degree for doing the bare minimum in work while they laugh their way to the bank with taxpayer (and your) money.

Reputation is incredibly important in academia. I guess they cheat because they believe the enhancement to their reputation from looking good, is better than the weighted risk of being caught.