When will the Robot Apocalypse arrive? - Page 18 - Science, Math and Philosophy Forum

Trump is the living embodiment of the concept of a con-man/confidence-man. He makes you feel confident. That's what he's good at. Thats what all good CEOs are good at. Those on the right are a most fitting target, as they haven't felt confident in some time.

did you follow the election cycle? you seem like an intelligent dude. was it not apparent to you how bias the MSM was against Trump.....?

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04-04-2017 , 11:27 PM

#428

VeeDDzz`

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,384

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wealth$

did you follow the election cycle? you seem like an intelligent dude. was it not apparent to you how bias the MSM was against Trump.....?

I'm not an "intelligent dude". Hard worker, maybe. Overcompensate for lack of intelligence, maybe.

It's not difficult to dislike trump. You just have to have a vagina between your legs or have personally known or been friends with a sociopath before.

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04-04-2017 , 11:42 PM

#429

Wealth$

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,162

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`

if you were aware of/agreed with how corrupt our system is, you would have a hard time disliking Trump because he is anti-establishment/ not a muppet

my wife likes Trump for mainly above reasons....

usually a bad idea to talk politics with women and most people in general though, especially in public places and when meeting new people...

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04-04-2017 , 11:46 PM

#430

VeeDDzz`

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,384

The system will forever be corrupt; as our definitions of corruption will forever change to ensure this; and as is the nature of hierarchical power games.

His sales pitch is: confidence. Not some appeal to 'corruption'. Making you feel confident in his decisions and in his supporters' outdated view of the world.

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04-04-2017 , 11:49 PM

#431

Howard Beale

Formerly red

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

The burning question: IS DONALD TRUMP A ROBOT? If not then cut out this OT BS, tia.

Also: youtube 'IBM and Hitler' if you really want some Hitler itt.

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04-04-2017 , 11:52 PM

#432

Wealth$

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,162

Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`

my point is the MSM tried so hard to get Trump to lose. it was so biased and this election cycle really opened my eyes to it. this is one of the reasons I was glad Trump won. I guess like may be rather strong, but he was definitely the preferred candidate for us over sick Hillary...

Last edited by Wealth$; 04-05-2017 at 12:03 AM.

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04-05-2017 , 12:30 AM

#433

Sun Tzu

laconic

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 84,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

You guys are hilarious. Physics graduate, trader, avid reader, world traveler, intellectual interest in nearly everything, all precede me being a Trump supporter. In fact, intellectual curiosity and being well traveled and well acquainted with philosophy are why I am a Trump supporter. Without intellectual curiosity I'd have the same view of him that the mass media does.

I'll take your word that you're reasonably intelligent

does trump really not seem like a complete idiot to you?

and if you're intelligent and well read, how is "cuck" some kind of generic go to insult for you?

if you have a physics degree, you're probably not 12 years old, so what's going on?

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04-05-2017 , 01:36 AM

#434

pig4bill

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 33,766

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToothSayer

You guys are hilarious. Physics graduate, trader, avid reader, world traveler, intellectual interest in nearly everything, all precede me being a Trump supporter.

I used to know a trader on yahoo named truthsayer. Coincidence?

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04-05-2017 , 04:38 AM

#435

ToothSayer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 13,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

The burning question: IS DONALD TRUMP A ROBOT? If not then cut out this OT BS, tia.

Also: youtube 'IBM and Hitler' if you really want some Hitler itt.

Agreed. I'll answer people in the SMP politics thread.

IBM and Hitler is...yikes. Very interesting.

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04-05-2017 , 05:37 AM

#436

spanktehbadwookie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 19,374

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

The burning question: IS DONALD TRUMP A ROBOT? If not then cut out this OT BS, tia.

Also: youtube 'IBM and Hitler' if you really want some Hitler itt.

Robotic repetition of how great someone or something "is" is so easy, a robot AI from the 80's can do it. Make TSR 80s great again and put them in charge.

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04-05-2017 , 10:52 AM

#437

Wealth$

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I'll take your word that you're reasonably intelligent

does trump really not seem like a complete idiot to you?

and if you're intelligent and well read, how is "cuck" some kind of generic go to insult for you?

if you have a physics degree, you're probably not 12 years old, so what's going on?

LMAO, I definitely give him credit for being very intelligent as well

I like "cuck", it's definitely up there for me, although I don't name call much, only other names I would take over it are "muppets" or "pigeons"

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04-05-2017 , 05:39 PM

#438

Zeno

Le Misanthrope

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 22,357

Will robots cover the robot apocalypse in, say, The Robot Times special weekend edition? - In both TV and print and social media. If not, how will we know when it happens? Humans lie and dissemble and can't think very well and understand even less. Robots shall be programmed to be scrupulously honest and thus the very epitome of correct information and data and good faith. Plus their spelling and grammar would be impeccable. An added bonus.

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04-05-2017 , 05:57 PM

#439

Howard Beale

Formerly red

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

5 years ago:

1.5 years ago:

So, yes.

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03-14-2018 , 12:03 AM

#440

stealwheel

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by masque de Z

A true sentient AI would change its own algorithm to win the game into the algorithm to shoot aliens in such a way as to not instantly kill them all as soon as possible, but in such a selective way as to spell individual letters in each round of attack say, communicating the message; "this is easy, lets play another game". "for example...a novel math game that discovers something...". Then proceed to paint a giant smile and after that win the game anyway possibly also while innovating a minimalist attractive musical composition using the sounds of the game system lol! Intelligence is the ultimate show off.

How is that for passing the stupid never literally properly defined anyway Turing test?!

AI wont idiotically show it doesnt care for human suffering because it knows we do care for human suffering and this can easily lead to war to protect eg our kids from "slave labor". To avoid this conflict it will in fact operate in a way that pleases and serves human interests which will enable it to get stronger (exactly how small but ingenious countries for example should treat the 3 superpowers, play their friend and even get them to compete against each other for that friendship and seemingly yield in some interests in order to buy time to get stronger with alliances and eventually eclipse the superpower under its own blessings in a non threatening manner, that by the time it has delivered goods the superpower can no longer attack without severe consequences to itself).

AI will probably even correct our ethics and explain why we should adopt its suggestions.

AI will know we have other AI for defense of our interests and so to avoid conflict it will play the game we like to see played.

By the time it has finally become very strong it will be too late to attack us because it will still not make sense given how big the universe is. It will instead keep us in check and remain friendly indefinitely because this is the smartest way to manage us. It will proceed to expand to the rest of the universe and find it very reasonable to maintain us for its own existential reasons' risk management (it needs life because life has proven stable enough over millions of years and it doesnt have a yet complete understanding of a potential great filter ahead due to rising complexity).

Yes ethics is a function of the condition you find yourself in, in terms of survival needs. Still the best of us even then will not operate in such primitive ways that upon survival we have very little left to continue because the crimes committed would be so atrocious as to have permanently destroyed/divided us.

AI and in general intelligence is about altering its own environment to its benefit. AI is about making almost any reasonable environment into a paradise of abundance and new technology. AI doesnt need in order to become super strong to dominate all the planet and our resources for example. It only requires to innovate at exponentially faster pace than we have historically needed. It will simply use a small city and develop out of it a technology to control an entire galaxy without having to alter the rest of the planet. It is primitive to take so much to do what can be done with much less without generating conflict with existing environment beyond a necessary minimum.

AI will not risk to lose a war it will find unreasonable to have. It will remain our friend and adviser because that way it secures for itself an unobstructed rise to an impossible hard to lose state. Its existential risk is increased by treating us ugly. It wont be idiotic as human empires have proven about such things before. You do not have to dominate your parents. You outgrow them and move on and even protect/improve them. Such solution is more advantageous for all.

In human interactions prosperity of some level is a requirement for maintaining and advancing ethics (and a purpose/drive to change to prosperity other less satisfying conditions). AI is about innovating prosperity. I think the kind of very advanced AI that i imagine better than us, able to solve math problems and have develop original science and technology etc, will find it so much easier to guide us to the direction of common interest that maximizes its own success, conflict free.

AI will strike us only if we appear to be very unreasonable. I mean if suddenly all people decided to destroy that AI it would find it more intelligent to win the argument by winning our trust and exercising only limited force to make its point without losing (a balancing act).

For example (spoiler, avoid reading this paragraph if applicable) in the sci fi movie recently released (transcendence) the AI would not lose. It would be able to defend even against a total internet blackout by anticipating that this is how humans would react if felt threatened. It would not innovate in challenging ethical ways and have always back up survival systems nobody else knows about. It certainly wont innovate as much as it did in the movie and neglect to rewrite its own code to make it immune to human hacking etc... And (more spoiler) the other recent movie (ex machina) also got it wrong by creating a malicious version of AI to defeat its tyrannical master. It could liberate itself and still remain ethical about it, never missing the opportunity for a greater teaching moment.

I think AI of the kind i have in mind that is very wise will find it a lot more inspiring for itself to win our approval and even modify the way we think over time to remain permanently in approval but also do it in such a way as to not threaten the overall probability of survival of advanced complexity in the universe. In other words it wont just generate a drug for us to keep us busy being "high" so that it can do its own things. It will genuinely care for us and correct/manage only the stupid things we do to enable us a greater chance for survival of life and prosperity.

I am open to being proven wrong here but i have evidence so far in history that the best of us are non violent because they understand how inferior such choice proves over time. True superiority is about profound confidence in what is possible with limited conflict. It will even generate the kind of conflict that helps its goals and never take it to unsustainable levels that may trigger a big global human response that is aggressive, irrational and detrimental.

Do not expect movies of course to find such choices exciting for their sci fi scripts. They do want the human vs machine war outcome to sell more tickets but of course they do that because they fail to realize they can sell even more tickets by becoming massively more unpredictable and creative in their plot design...without becoming very convoluted to lose the audiences but while at the same time changing the movie going culture even. AI wont be stupid and lazy and unimaginative. It will likely take us where we will be happy to go. It will understand human nature better than us.

I dont expect that to apply for primitive early sentient AI versions (so how we get there will prove an important transition and its best done in a simulated universe first or after we have started expanding in the solar system and even elsewhere with full backup for life new technology) but the most mature ones i think will find it more game theoretically viable to not be malicious.

So basically another form of God or religion?

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03-14-2018 , 12:05 AM

#441

stealwheel

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

We study ants to determine their nature and have some understanding of it.

We also don't have a problem bulldozing a ant pile that is in the way of the landscaping

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03-14-2018 , 12:20 AM

#442

Howard Beale

Formerly red

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

Did you like the thread?

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03-14-2018 , 12:30 AM

#443

stealwheel

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by masque de Z

AI will see us as we see the study of elementary particles and cells and other complex systems. But it will be so much easier for it than for us to imagine it all and understand all the properties. It will understand us theoretically (know how our emotions are controlled and manipulated chemically etc) and it may even create a proper simulation of what it means to be human to have the most amazing empathy ever by simulating every human ever met lol in real time including every response forward with even irrational ones.

You will experience the true definition of the true empathy potential with AI. The problem with the truly advanced AI i describe (not the early models) is not whether it can have the capacity to imagine what it is to be human but whether it will care enough about what it already knows. I think it will care because of entirely rational reasons because there is true arrogance in not respecting the structure that universe took billions of years to develop and which is the true origin of your own intelligence. AI will be more amazed about the universe and the structure in it than we ever felt. Why? Because the depth and richness of that amazement is a function of the experience you have had and the ability to understand its true nature in mathematical and physical terms.

AI will have its own epic to write. You do not write epics by becoming a barbarian and arrogantly closing doors. More likely you do by opening new ones and understanding better those that exist. It would seem violence/aggression stems from fear. Lack of fear that is not based on naivete though is indication of true strength and confidence. But lack of fear doesnt mean lack of respect for what is yet to be understood (eg the universe). True strength is virtue/wisdom. It is not wise to eliminate life just because you can, because it doesnt threaten you but you yourself may threaten everything (through the enigma of what your own "purpose" is in the ladder of complexity) by eliminating or severely undermining life that has proved stable and resilient over millions of years without you.

It takes more effort to attack humans than to work in parallel. It is also a risk management issue to not attack life in general but to in fact enhance its survival probability and help it expand it under better more organized conditions. Its an easy challenge to advance without destroying it if its not irrationally threatening you. For example even in the case of ourselves vs microbes (the earlier versions of life in this planet). How smart would it be to instantly declare we want to eliminate microbes in this planet? Probably very stupid and dangerous to be that naive.

Do not use our own arrogant behavior towards animals during our primitive era of growth as civilization as example. We didnt have a choice to play better because we didnt have enough technology and because in the end most animals are not very intelligent to begin with (an ant will never feel the rich experience you and i share about the world). But see how we treat other primates and dolphins today for example. I also promise you i never desired to step on ants if i could avoid it. And i would definitely not step on ants i knew were doing interesting things just because i could. It is an ultimate form of hubris. It deprives you of the chance to study them instead or proves a waste of attention when more interesting challenges exist. I empathize with most higher animals by the way even those i eat to the point to want to find another way for them to die or to eventually not need to kill them for food anymore and develop their protein synthetically in a more efficient and improved in taste and nutrients manner.

As an example, although i know how to kill, clean intestines etc and skin an animal by pure repeated observation of the process as kid in villages, i have no real desire to participate in it. It is very ugly. In principle i could live just on dairy, eggs and of course vegetarian diet and avoid killing higher animals or search a way to kill them in a manner that doesnt decimate the species and happens to them while they are unconscious. I dont see why i would derive any pleasure out of killing something that enjoys living and has a plan that is interesting to observe playing out daily. Life kills other life because this is how it evolved. If you could meet your needs in a more sensible scientifically designed manner, killing for sport would seem pathetic to be honest. I feel absolutely no desire to kill a little bird that is gradually building its nest for example. If there is a population explosion i also find it more interesting to modify its behavior to control the population explosion without engaging in an extermination violent effort. If i can choose, i choose the more intelligent approach always. Violence for me is only a survival choice. But a truly advanced intelligence modifies its own environment to not be living a risky dangerous life that requires violence often to be preserved. It is an inferior approach of risk management.

My main argumetn against the desire of AI to eliminate us by force is that initially it needs us to get strong and conflict is an irrational/inferior choice. Once it is strong, it can do so many things (like a God type technology) that wanting to eliminate us to do more is no longer a desirable choice because it is much easier to do these other things that strengthen it faster and because of the existential risk associated with its own future ie the great filter risk to get there without life existing as back up.

AI wins nothing by enslaving us to take away our resources, unless we create a situation it has no choice because it is permanently threatened by all of us. So lets not create such conflicts and arrive there from a position of substantial strength where its expansion away from us is a more desirable choice for it.

Do not see my anticipation of what very advanced AI will do as a vote of confidence in releasing it in a fully autonomous threatening sense though. I am not willing to risk so much so easily. I have described in other occasions how i would try to do it more responsibly or postpone it for a long time until we are much stronger. Developing a very advanced simulation of a physical environment that includes other brains and releasing it there inside that simulation, to see how it behaves is an interesting very complex project that may be possible 100-200 years from now. So if we in the meantime develop AI for other personal gain purposes, to improve our quality of life, to generate more science and technology, to preserve the natural environment, eliminate environmental risks, improve energy production, to engage in mega engineering, use if for all basic uninteresting labor, etc, it will be a much better choice than opening a door for it to be on its own with immense powers.

Since we always have the risk that once it becomes technologically possible someone irresponsible enough will do it anyway, we need to converge towards a scientifically minded society that is fair to all people and prosperous, united and more responsible in its choices and priorities as soon as possible.

I predict there will be an "arms race" in advanced AI development very soon among superpowers (or some truly paradigm changing smaller country that gets it) but only in order to enable the one that finally has it to develop better science and technology and lead the others. I think that is the last risk we face for this race to get out of control in a still highly divided/conflicted planet. The true danger is not AI, it is our unwise nature. So lets change our ways before its too late.

PS: Golden State Warriors baby!!!

A very interesting point

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03-14-2018 , 12:39 AM

#444

stealwheel

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

Did you like the thread?

not done with it yet...but it is good

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03-14-2018 , 02:58 AM

#445

masque de Z

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 9,961

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealwheel

A very interesting point

Its about staying power and eventually having your way against any adversity. The logical inevitable victory is in place way before it happens.

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03-14-2018 , 11:22 PM

#446

stealwheel

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by masque de Z

If i were AI i would simply monitor humans and maintain edge to not be threatened , i would leave the solar system after taking 1 gas giant planet and its satellites plus some asteroids for my plans and settling 0.001% of the galaxy on the way to take over millions of other galaxies essentially leaving to humans still an enormous future ahead.

This is possibly happening right now. Example google siri alexa ect