Below is an excerpt from Menicus (Chinese philosopher of 4th centuary B.C.E.) expounding on topics best described as moral and political philosophy using people as examples. Some key things to keep in mind when reading the excerpt: ‘Heaven’ is not used in a western concept at all and should thought of as simply the natural process or as the cosmic roof of natural processes in some contexts. It has absolutely nothing to with an afterlife etc. ‘Way’ is a Taoist principal – The effortless process of human society functioning according to its natural Ritual structure and this can also take on cosmological dimensions. Yao, Shun, Ch’i and Lu are names of ancient states or regions in China.

Chinese thought involves multiple subtleties and layers and seemingly odd thoughts in strange arrangement. But it is worth the time to think deeply about what is said below whether you agree or disagree with the concepts and content.

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Menicus said “ Po Yi wouldn’t look at anything foul, and he wouldn’t listen to anything foul. He never served a sovereign he disdained, and never governed a people he disdained. So he took office in times of wise rule, and he renounced office in times of chaos. He couldn’t bear to live in a land where perverse government attracted perverse people, where living among villagers was like donning fine court robes to sit in mud and ash. So when the tyrant Chou came to power, Po Yi fled to the shores of he North Sea, where he awaited the return of purity to all beneath Heaven. That’s why the greedy are cured of greed when they hear the legend of Po Yi, and the timid grow resolute.


“Yi Yun said:

Any sovereign I serve is that much more worthy, and any people I serve is that much more worthy. So I take office in times of wise rule and I take office in times of chaos. And he also said: Heaven brought this people into being, Heaven appointed the wise to awaken those who will be wise, appointed the awakened to awaken those would will be awakened. Of Heaven’s people, I am one of the awakened, so I should use this Way to awaken the people.

If there were peasants anywhere in all beneath Heaven not enjoying the blessings of Yao and Shun, Yi Yin felt as if he himself and thrown them into a ditch. That’s how deeply responsible he felt for all beneath Heaven.


Liu-hsia Hui wasn’t shamed by defiled rulers, nor did he consider common positions below him. When in office, he always depend on the Way and never hid his wisdom. When dismissed, he bore no resentment. And suffering adversity, he remained untroubled. Living among villagers, he was so content he couldn’t bear to leave. He used to say: You are you, and I am I. Even if you stripped naked and stood beside me, how could you ever tarnish me? That’s why small minds grow broad when they hear the legend of Liu-hsia Hui, and the *****rdly grow generous.

“When Confucius left Ch’í he simply emptied his rice steamer and set out. But when he left Lu, he said: There’s no hurry, no hurry at all. That’s the Way to leave your parents’ country. If it was wise to hurry away, he hurried away; and if it was wise to linger, he lingered. If it was wise to stay somewhere he stayed; and if it was wise to take office, he took office. That was Confucius.

Then Mencius continued: “Po Yi was a sage of purity, Yi Yin a sage of deep responsibility, Liu-hsia Hui a sage of complaisance – but Confucius was a sage who understood for all things their proper time. You could say he gathered the great perfections into a single orchestra – everything from resounding bells to rustling chimes of jade. Resounding bells begin a performance and rustling jade ends it. To being a performance – this is the task of knowledge. And to end a performance – that is a task of a sage’s wisdom. A good analogy for knowledge might be skill, and a good analogy for a sage’s wisdom might be strength. When you’re shooting from beyond a hundred paces and you arrow reaches the target, that is strength, But if it hits the mark, that is something else again.

From Mencius Translated by David Hinton, p. 179-180, Perseus Books Group, Washington D.C.

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A few questions to kick start a discussion -

Was Po Yi a coward for, under the guise of purity, simply running away when times were bad, shirking the moral obligations of his office?

Is Yi Yun a more ethical person than Po Yi.

Was Li-hsi Hui more noble that the two above or less so?

Do you agree with Mencius’ synopsis of the three men he described?

What do you think of Mencius' comments about Confucius.

Or just make general comments. The basis for Moral and Ethical actions and principles seems a favorite topic to many here so I thought the above excerpt would prove interesting and stimulate discussion from a different angle.

-Zeno

I don't think virtue can be quantified. Is an orchestra of one person superior to an orchestra of three persons?

*****, please.

[QUOTE=madnak;7987452]



I'm not responsible for the translation but I agree a poor choice. Miserly would suffice and probably gives a better general meaning and also cadence to the text.


This was all useful nonetheless as I learned something about myself.


-Zeno

This is nice and a practical presentation of the "Tao" or the "Way" is evident in the 4 "Ways" delineated by Mencius.

These were "inner" ways as apposed to our external methodology manifested by the Decalogue. In scholastic thought there is the idea of natural law as apposed to external law. Interestingly , some time ago i remember someone talking of the Confucian effects on the ancient Chinese as the entire culture progressed to what we may call customs but more like tomes written about what each person should do in specific circumstances. Orderly rules of activity which to the western eye would seem coercive but to the ancient Chinese is the "Way" transformed to the earthly culture.