ok first there is what am I saying, and then 2nd there is what is my proof or what do I say to persuade you

1. I am saying if you believe there is a dragon in front of you then you will see a dragon, until you stop believing it. Same goes for anything you believe. Same goes for the saying I gave in the op, its true as long as you believe it.

2. For the proof, I may not have that, but I think it can be shown that the saying can never be proved false because its always untrue if you believe its untrue. Its the only thing in this world that can do that...be untrue when you want it to be, but yet its still true.

So if I explained it well but I don't feel like I did, then it would make sense that all the logic in this world works but is wrong or not total.

I think this also make sense when compared to the limits of certain sciences where things flip back and forth like light being a wave or a particle depending on the observer and stuff like that.

Your saying something is true as long as you believe it, but many of us have shown that to be categorically false through several examples - some ending in personal injury.

How would believing a dragon is in front of you cause you to see a dragon? Many people seem to believe in God, but few claim to visibly see him. Since it typically works the other way, i.e., one sees something, then believes it, how is your way supposed to work?

I'm talking about it in a slightly different way, you say they believe in God but don't see him. I'm saying if they believe they see God, then they do.

with the injury example people gave, they say "I didn't think I was going to get hurt, but then I did, and now I believe it happened."

With the examples given to refute as well, the idea is people say heres why its wrong: I believed it was true, then I was shown it wasn't, so then its not true....the last part of the being the 'truth'.


Im not trying to level or be a troll, its hard to explain because it sounds circular, Im trying to give the best explanation I can, obv not very good.


Edit: Also I think the wording is that ...causation can't be used to disprove this because the point is belief trumps causation. or cause and effect if that means the same thing

What would make someone believe they see something, besides it actually being there to reflect the light into their eyes? Are you talking about hypnosis, or a dream? And then are you suggesting what people see during hypnosis or a dream is actually real?

If what I am saying is true, then what you see and what you believe are the same. The question you're asking now is more how could we change what we see with our beliefs.

That would be something we could explore in science afterwards. I think someone could say sure you are correct but we can't control our beliefs like that. It would be easier for me to show that we can if we can accept the first part...so: "whatever you believe to be true is true, although we may not be able to consciously mess with what we believe"

In what way do you think they "see" God? Do you mean visible sight? I suspect that what is written in bold is simply not true

then it won't be.

but that's too big to use as an example....the reason he brought it up is because a lot of people believe in him even though the haven't seen him in physical form or whatever....

to talk about it in that way we would have to deal with the hang ups of religion directly...i'd rather bring that in after....

the point is if you believe it then its true....for example if someone cuts your hand off and you believe its still there it will be....then someone comes along as says 'no its not, I can see its not.' but that's what 'they' believe so its not there for them.

I don't know man. I'm pretty sure if someone cut off your hand and you somehow didn't feel it, you'd still notice it the next time you tried to wipe your arse with your stump.

A while ago I believed I'd parked in a certain spot. When I got there, I didn't see my car even though I fully believed it was there. Then I remembered I'd parked on the third level not the second. Once again, my belief had nothing to do with what was true; and furthermore, my belief didn't make it true. Still can't see how your theory can work.

Surely if someone cut off your hand but you didn't feel it, and you believed it were still there, then

a) your hand is NOT still on your arm, but
b) you believe your hand is still on your arm,

i.e. your belief does not have anything to do with "absolute truth" (in the sense you mean).

So no, what you believe to be true does NOT make it "absolutely true".

I'm still not sure though what you mean by "true". Do you mean "absolutely true", or "true to yourself"? You can't just use the word "true" in a sentence in this thread without being specific to what type of truth you are referring to. It is obviously very relevant here.

[QUOTE=FoldnDark;32964141]I don't know man. I'm pretty sure if someone cut off your hand and you somehow didn't feel it, you'd still notice it the next time you tried to wipe your arse with your stump.
/QUOTE]
no you wouldn't notice, not if you believed you still had your hand. If you noticed you wouldn't believe you had a hand anymore.

What do you believe now? What is true now?

now you are talking about 2 perspective....two observers. One believes his hand is there, and one who watches from across the room sees its not. For as long as each of them believes what they do they are correct.

What do you mean by 'absolute'....I understand the definition...but what is the absolute reference point? This is the place God takes in many peoples eyes. Without god as a reference point you are left with either yourself (which i have shown to have matrix levels properties) or the absolute reference point is the general public...

If the general public is the reference point then the saying becomes 'whatever the general public believes to be true, is true as long as they believe it'

Our minds only perceive and see things we believe to be 'true' or to exist. If we are able to play with our beliefs then we can change the things we see or perceive...its very simple and obviously true I think....the only argument is whether or not we are capable of changing our beliefs in the face of what we see.

What do you mean by absolute truth?

Please explain what you mean when you say absolute truth.

We can make no progress in this thread until you express/explain/describe what you mean when you talk about "absolute truth".

Even if it is the collins dictionary definition to which you are referring, please copy and paste it into the thread EXACTLY/PRECISELY the definition of absolute truth you are using to make your argument.

So far you have avoided stating the definition you are using.

I will keep probing you to do this until you do so.

Fair enough keep probing till you feel I explained. But there is an issue here because if what I am saying is 'true' then there are no absolute truths...truth becomes relative.

Now since its relative, or pliable, it can actually be 'absolute' and still remain relative by nature. It can be true yet untrue. Where as if we assume absolute truth first, it doesn't make sense to have relative truth and absolute.

A metaphor or model for what I'm saying would be A = A. Everyone can see that and agree, but that doesn't mean its fully correct. If we say A = X (where x can change) then A can equal A but it can also equal anything. So A = A makes sense but isn't the full answer.

You keep saying the phrase "absolute true" as if you have already explained/expressed what you mean by this phrase. You have not yet explained what you mean by this phrase. Therefore I am in no position to make an argument here, until you have explained what you mean when you say "absolute truth". Perhaps someone else will debate with you. But until you explain what you mean by absolute truth, I cannot add anything.

I accidentally mixed absolutely true with absolute truth but I think what you're asking about is absolute truth, which I'm suggesting doesn't exist.

But what it refers to is what people see as real. A chair is a chair. That is an absolute truth. Something is what it is.