Universal Truth? - Page 3

newguy1234 · 05-14-2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 of a KINDBUD

Seeing is believing....

is what you believe...if you didn't believe that...it wouldn't true....

newguy1234 · 05-14-2012, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

I think the term universal truth is being mis-used / mis-understood here.

I had a discussion yesterday about it and this is the conclusion I came to.

In fact, it is far from obvious that "killing is wrong". Let us take the case of Hitler...

What Hitler did was right to him. *
In my opinion, this doesn't immediately/obviously mean that what he did was "absolutely wrong"**. However, if you chose a random person on Earth, then that person's view on what Hitler did was that what he did was wrong (this is their opinion on the matter). Let us now try to disect what this phrase "what Hitler did was wrong" (and more general claims of absoltue truth) really means.

(1) Suppose it is a universal FACT*** that: Truth is relative, i.e. what is true to me might be different to what is true to you. e.g. "I believe that event A happened at this place at this time." Someone else might disagree on what I believe is true.

(2) Compare what I think is true to what other people think is true.

(3) If there is strong agreement on what different people believe to be true, then we define that to be the absolute truth (of an event).

So we have derived the notion of absolute truth and avoided using any notions of absoluteness along the way (if you're not going to be a nit). This is similar to the derivation of the lorentz transformation in special relativity.

*This is a good example of an absolute truth. Most people agree that Hitler thought what he was doing was right.

** In fact, the question to ask is: "is there such thing as absolute wrongness?", and the answer to this question can be derived in a similar way to the above reasoning/method.

*** do problems really arise by considering "relative truth" as a universal fact? Possibly, but I don't think so (as in, I think that we can get round it with lots more reasoning). It is a much nittier try than the rest of my post and so i think that here we can ignore the issue.

Also, bear in mind that I haven't studied this subject in any detail, so these are just my thoughts/findings.

No you're missing the simplicity and silliness (silly to all you, but not to me) of this UT....you're saying such and such logic, proves me wrong, and I say back...ya thats what you believe so its true.

you have to take my UT as a belief...then try to prove it wrong...someone might say its impossible to do...but you can't disprove it without first taking of your own glasses and then putting on mine then play with it....

You can't put out a scenario and say lets say someone believes such and such...because you are still operating under the assumption my UT is wrong.

Then someone will say thats illogical, which if you assume i'm wrong it is illogical, but if you believe I'm right its perfectly logical......and it also bypasses the problems with Descartes and the axiom A = A having no proof....

jewbinson · 05-15-2012, 01:14 AM

I am just giving an insight into what I believe is universal truth.

Stop thinking in terms of axioms and proof and start challenging ideas and principles. Axiomatic approach to discovering what "truth" is is silly.

Also, what is your definition of universal truth?

And what is the point of this thread again?

housenuts · 05-15-2012, 02:05 AM

I believe 2 + 2 = 5.

It is true that is my belief.

My belief is not true.

newguy1234 · 05-15-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

Also, what is your definition of universal truth?

And what is the point of this thread again?

Maybe your out-leveling me but the op was my UT 'What ever you believe to be true, is true, as long as you believe it to be? '

The point of the thread was to relate this to people to see what they would have to say.

newguy1234 · 05-15-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by housenuts

My belief is not true.

exactly

jewbinson · 05-15-2012, 02:43 AM

"what ever I believe to be true, is universally true, as long as I believe it to be"? Is that what you mean?

newguy1234 · 05-15-2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

"what ever I believe to be true, is universally true, as long as I believe it to be"? Is that what you mean?

yup, if your making a difference between the quote i quoted with 'you' instead of 'I', the difference doesn't really matter cause long as one is true then anything can be true. but ya thats it.

edit: ok I re read what was in quotes and see what you did.....it doesn't really matter...if the statement has merritt it can change anything it wants to be truth...it can make it universal or not or whatever

people will say just because I or they believe something doesn't make it true for everyone, and I'll point out thats your belief so you are now correct and evidence will support that.

Anything you point out as wrong, becomes wrong and therefore is wrong. You have to believe it to be true and then see if its wrong, and it never will be.

jewbinson · 05-15-2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:

yup, if your making a difference between the quote i quoted with 'you' instead of 'I', the difference doesn't really matter cause long as one is true then anything can be true. but ya thats it.

It looks like you are assuming from the outset that what is true to me is true to everyone. This is not the way to go when trying to disprove the exact same statement. I actually believe that what is true to me is not true to anyone else. One way to proceed in argument is to adopt this mentality - i.e. pretend you are someone who really believes just that. But otherwise I don't actually get what you're getting at.

Actually, to me, what you write is confusing and not very clear....

newguy1234 · 05-15-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

It looks like you are assuming from the outset that what is true to me is true to everyone.

I'm saying if someone truly believes this then it would become true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

I actually believe that what is true to me is not true to anyone else.

then that is what will be true, but if you changed that belief then it would not be true. Thats what im claiming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

i.e. pretend you are someone who really believes just that.

but it can't be pretending it has to be a change in the belief from your core.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

... what you write is confusing and not very clear....

I know

jewbinson · 05-15-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

I know :s

In which case, STOP WRITING SHORTHAND! And by this, I mean "stop shortening phrases. Instead write them in full".

For example, you say:

Quote:

I'm saying if someone truly believes this then it would become true.

NO! DON'T THINK LIKE THIS! It doesn't make sense! My first questions to this statement are:

What does "truly believes in something" mean?
What does "true" mean?

Do you mean true to you? Or what?
I believe that the word "true" has no meaning at all in the context you have presented it.

jewbinson · 05-15-2012, 04:10 PM

Basically, you're assuming that there is such a thing as universal truth. And then you're asking us, "is there such a thing as universal truth?" You get nowhere by assuming something is true and then asking is it true. It is like saying:

"Okay, so if God tells you you should believe in him then you should believe in him and therefore he exists".

No. This is stupid. When you start with "so if God tells you...", then you are assuming that God exists. Then you conclude that God exists. Well OF COURSE if you start with assuming that God exists then you will end up showing that God exists. But that hasn't shown that God does exist. In fact you haven't shown ANYTHING (useful) to be true.

Goodygumdrops · 05-20-2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy1234

I'm saying if someone truly believes this then it would become true.

Have you considered visiting a psychiatric hospital? It might be a good place to test the assertion you made in the OP.

zenjedi · 05-20-2012, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy1234

What ever you believe to be true, is true, as long as you believe it to be?

Yes, I think so. Whatever you can imagine exists, though not necessarily in this universe at this time. Your mind, being a conduit or perhaps equivalent to the multiverse, is incapable of imagining something which doesn't exist somewhere in the multiversal mind. This gets really interesting when you realize that (so-called) reality is therefore indistinguishable from fantasy, and you may in fact be the dream of Chuang Tzu's proverbial butterfly or the nightmare of a small green Jedi, dreaming that he lives on a backward, backwater planet called Earth!

newguy1234 · 05-20-2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewbinson

No. This is stupid. When you start with "so if God tells you...", then you are assuming that God exists. Then you conclude that God exists. Well OF COURSE if you start with assuming that God exists then you will end up showing that God exists. But that hasn't shown that God does exist. In fact you haven't shown ANYTHING (useful) to be true.

But if you changed that belief then it would be useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goodygumdrops

Have you considered visiting a psychiatric hospital? It might be a good place to test the assertion you made in the OP.

Tell me something you belief to be true that isn't true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenjedi

Yes, I think so. Whatever you can imagine exists, though not necessarily in this universe at this time.

If that's what you believe then its true.