I wouldn't call his argument a "high horse" any more than if someone said "you can't understand how someone feels on LSD unless you've experienced it or something similar yourself."

I doubt you would be so upset by that claim.

I think precedent is being set (Switzerland maybe) but check PSYCInfo, it's euthanasia and mental illness. Survivors of childhood abuse, sometimes their demons...

While inherently deterministic, there is allowance for free will even as a illusion within deterministic protective structures @ K2+ quantum computational arrays.

Good luck. [Restructure as needed, I'll handle the last few nanoseconds.]

The first A isn't valid as it has the word "possessions" in it. The first B isn't valid as suicide is included as a rational possibility by gods themselves. The second A isn't valid as inflicting pain on others isn't always wrong, and the second B is the same, man making a rational move of suicide when it's the best move and it's the mistake of others to take it as pain only even when it causes them pain. Life is pain also.

There is a difference though. Its similar to the arguments that religion makes... "better believe or you will go to hell when you die."

This guy thinks that the people who attempt suicide and fail at it have some superior knowledge about suicide. First of all, I dont need to cut my hand off to know having my hand cut off is not good. Second, no one is going to try to kill themselves for knowledge to combat this guy (the one who linked some book) in the same way no one is going to kill themself to find out if hell is real or not. Third, it could very well be the case that if we were to rank people in how well they can understand suicide, the people who succeeded at suicide could be first, the people who have not failed at suicide could be second, and the people who have failed at suicide could be last (so my third point is "failed at suicide != understand suicide" ).

edit: young kids always fail at tying their shoes, but they do not claim some superior knowledge on the subject for having done so.

(ill stop being a dick now) also, even if "failed at suicide = understand suicide more," this is not the case in this thread. for all this book guy knows, everyone ITT except for him has attempted suicide 20x so far but will not admit to it because of the social stigma. we dont know if book guy is the only one ITT who has attempted suicide, all we know is he is the only one who has boasted about it.

edit 2: and I stand behind my previous statement about the book. it is just like the religion thing yet again. im not going to kill myself to find out if hell is real or not, and im not going to read an entire book to see if some guy's post online was valid or not. if the book made good points or good arguments he can present them here and we can be the judges of how good they are.

You are strange.

Ryanb9, you accused me of "boasting" about attempting suicide, which is the most ****ed up reaction I've ever encountered. Could you expand on that? Your shoe tying analogy is also interesting.

What would you say if I compared suicide to sex? You don't really know what sex is about until you've actually experienced it in the same way you can't fully understand suicide unless you've been in a position where self-termination appears to be the best option. I'd think that the overwhelming majority of us would agree that anyone claiming to understand the full impact of sex without actually having sex would be a naive fool. The same is true in my mind when it comes to those that have been in a seriously depressed state that has led to attempted suicide and those who have no idea what that is like.

To hold the point of my analogy, it was "perhaps, those who have attempted sex and failed at it know less about sex than those who have not yet attempted sex." The point is the "perhaps" meaning it is not a given that that those who have attempted to have sex and didn't have sex know more about having sex than those who have not attempted to have sex.

It is a horrible analogy that I made and I knew it was at the time, which is why after I made it I said I would stop being a dick because it was a poor analogy that would probably appear strong at first glance.

By "boast" I mean you said something like "you guys dont know what your talking about in this thread. I have attempted suicide twice so I know what I'm talking about read this book and you might be on my level etc" Not that this paragraph is important tho, my opinion of who is or is not boasting in an online thread doesn't deserve a response imo.

edit: fwiw, probably 1/4th of the arguments I make in SMP I dont actually stand behind. Obviously, I think that all things being equal, someone who has attempted suicide is much more likely to know more about the general topic of suicide than someone who has not, but this means defending that side of the argument would be a bore.

This thread is closed; at least temporarily. If you have questions about this then send me a PM.

-Zeno