Should you be held accountable for the actions of your clones - Page 2

masque de Z · 02-09-2012, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piers

I see, in the same way that parents are responsible for the actions of their children?

No, in a much stronger sense under the conditions of correlation i suggested. The cloning person has a serious problem that leads to criminal behavior often and by cloning he creates people that will behave in the future similarly bad. One needs to establish not only strong correlation of say DNA and that behavior but also that the person cloning knew about it and went ahead anyway.

All-In Flynn · 02-09-2012, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryanb9

To bring the word QM into this discussion is absurd. You can tell there is no such thing as an exact clone of anything with a magnifying glass.

You propose to distinguish between two measles virions with a magnifying glass? Bet it doesn't fit in your pocket.

chezlaw · 02-09-2012, 07:06 AM

Who cares if they start the same. they diverge, two different people we are not repsonsible for other peoples actions. Lend my clone money dont expect me to pay it back.

and it doesn't matter how many of them do something if I dont. I'm not taking responsibility for parents howveer damn common they are.

However if producing the clones is considered wrong for some reason then if I produce them then I am accountable for that action. We might consider that even worse than being a parent.

Piers · 02-09-2012, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masque de Z

No, in a much stronger sense under the conditions of correlation i suggested. The cloning person has a serious problem that leads to criminal behavior often and by cloning he creates people that will behave in the future similarly bad. One needs to establish not only strong correlation of say DNA and that behavior but also that the person cloning knew about it and went ahead anyway.

Criminals should not be able to have children, especially if they are born into a similar environment to their patents? So would you agree with sterilization of convicted felons?

FortunaMaximus · 02-09-2012, 08:00 AM

chez,

While I agree, I'm not too sure.

It'd be precedent. If a zaibatsu does this to preserve its familial integrity, then it becomes a matter of corporate responsibility, no?

masque de Z · 02-09-2012, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piers

Criminals should not be able to have children, especially if they are born into a similar environment to their patents? So would you agree with sterilization of convicted felons?

I am not saying any of this. I am talking about a very specific well established high correlation case. It will become a real example eventually with some research but for now i keep it abstract. I dont know if there is any research about the heredity of very hardcore abusive antisocial behavior but i doubt it will have such a significant correlation to satisfy my example. I even said earlier that one needs to be careful not to get into eugenics or kinds of racism etc.

jackaaron · 02-09-2012, 08:27 AM

According to the consensus of this thread (some of whom are ITT), the answer is that you should be held accountable since it actually is you (provided it's a copy):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/47...-life-1099127/

batair · 02-09-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Pidasso

In an RGT thread someone claimed that eventually we will be able to download our consciousness into robot bodies.

Just to be clear i dont claim we will. I claim you dont know we wont.

Stu Pidasso · 02-09-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Who cares if they start the same. they diverge, two different people we are not repsonsible for other peoples actions. Lend my clone money dont expect me to pay it back.

and it doesn't matter how many of them do something if I dont. I'm not taking responsibility for parents howver damn common they are.

Presumably one of the reasons we incarcerate folks is because we want to protect society from future criminal acts. If half of a whole class of people need to be incarcerated what does that say about the other half?

batair · 02-09-2012, 01:40 PM

It says half of a whole class of people didn't commit criminal acts that society needs protection form.

Mt.FishNoob · 02-09-2012, 02:03 PM

First instinct is no,

but if Hitler had his concious uploaded into another body (A Hitler body or not) before he committed all his war crimes, I guess it would depend how long ago it was, but if it was like the week before he invaded Poland or whatver (insert any true historical evil man doing something bad) then I should think that concious should be killed or contained.

In the example in OP, if 5000 of the 10001 bodies/minds got drunk and murdered, then the other 5001 need to be locked up or some other means to prevent them drinking as there is a clear pattern.

I think a better example should have been given.

Just 1 clone would suffice, a time frame, and a nature of the crime. These variables can change the answer.

Stu Pidasso · 02-09-2012, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

It says half of a whole class of people didn't commit criminal acts that society needs protection form.

So it is your position that the actions of your clones suggest nothing about the nature of your current or future behavior?

I certainly do not like the idea of being locked up or being treated differently because of something my clones did. However I can't pretend that the actions of my clones don't say anything about me....my character, morality, and/or integrity.

Suppose instead of drinking and getting drunk and killing people....5000 of your clones over the course of 10 years....were convicted of child molestation and/or child pornography. Should the other 5001 be allowed around children? If you had a house full of young children would you want to be informed if a neighbor was a clone of a child molester?

FortunaMaximus · 02-09-2012, 03:52 PM

Why are you fixated on copies of one being within a series of 120 or so billion people?

Procreation works fine as it is, mostly. Society not so much but [censored] them.

Ryanb9 · 02-09-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masque de Z

Are you prepared to defend that the unpredictability in human behavior is not at all related to its quantum origin? I can imagine a full sequence of things that started with the decay of a particular atom that triggers an entirely different macroscopic future (ie a rare mutation, cancer etc). I do believe also that in some broader (non rare i mean) level the dependence on initial conditions some of which quantum in origin and chaos theory combine to produce a radically different result in some even limited aspect of behavior given enough time.

Consider a woman about to get pregnant. She has digested some radioactive material via food recently, without knowing, that is now part of her body. It produces decay radiation that is non trivial but still very hard to target a specific location of her body that is critical (her eggs) (the woman wont die from radiation poisoning i mean and her eggs wont be destroyed at all, its a minor form of poisoning). A random decay produces a mutation in the DNA of her egg (real rare event actually) . Out of thousands/millions of decays that one made a very rare collision to the macromolecule base that produced a gene alteration (a very low probability event) . As a result the child that is born later after that egg is fertilized and brought to full term has a rare genetic disorder that completely alters the daily habits and behavior of that woman for the rest of her life as it relates to caring for that child. All because of that one atom that did decay in that particular manner vs all other possibilities. A completely quantum random event.

Ryanb9: Best way to know how Caesar died?
masque de Z: To look at carbon atoms with an electron microscope, obv.
Ryanb9: Uh, no.

Honestly I cannot tell if you are trolling this thread or not.

Vantek · 02-09-2012, 05:14 PM

To answer OP, in short, yes. In long, our sense of morality and the justice system is pretty damn irrational to begin with and the clone issue causes the absurdity to surface, but pragmatically, if 5000 copies commit murder (a statistically rock solid pattern! I mean often people base their decisions on patterns that they think are rock solid while actually they are very thin, but in this example, the pattern actually really is rock solid), there is no way in hell I or anyone else would tolerate the remaining 5001 walking around. Of course if there is reason to believe that murderous behaviour was caused by something that has occurred to the 5000 but not to the 5001, then the 5001 would not be held responsible. Hard to bring an example with so many... but I mean if you were cloned at birth and your clone was raised in a different family, then no way in hell would you be held responsible. But if you were cloned multitude of times as an adult, and the clones display statistically robust pattern, so that there really is solid reason to believe that you yourself are very susceptible to that pattern, then the society should and will protect itself from that pattern.