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Old 05-17-2017, 01:53 PM   #76
ToothSayer
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by dereds View Post
So I donate x % of my salary to charity and it makes me feel good but I sacrifice spending x% on myself that would make me feel better but the requirements of psychological egoism are satisfied regardless.
A perfect pole to hoist this "no true selfless act" idiocy on. It's just low rent confirmation bias/shoehorning, masquerading as some deep point about human nature.

For your example, they'll just claim the tradeoff you chose is for deeper satisfaction.

Some percentage of people do selfless things all the time, imo. People who say "there's no true selfless act" are usually just people without any altruism themselves, so they can't comprehend it in others. Psychopaths and sociopaths say stuff like that a lot.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:10 PM   #77
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Some percentage of people do selfless things all the time, imo. People who say "there's no true selfless act" are usually just people without any altruism themselves, so they can't comprehend it in others. Psychopaths and sociopaths say stuff like that a lot.
Or we're just willing to admit there are alternate motivations at work?
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:57 PM   #78
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Refer to psychological egoism.
You know that he meant psychological egoism?
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:20 PM   #79
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Or we're just willing to admit there are alternate motivations at work?
Example of a selfless act: hiding a family of Jews you don't know from the Nazis for months, even though it means certain torture and death for you and your whole family if you get caught.

You can tell me that's not a selfless act; I'll call you a ****wit.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:46 PM   #80
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Example of a selfless act: hiding a family of Jews you don't know from the Nazis for months, even though it means certain torture and death for you and your whole family if you get caught.

You can tell me that's not a selfless act; I'll call you a ****wit.
I think psychological egoism is rather obviously false.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:12 PM   #81
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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..............snip................

Zeno your forum is ****ing awful fella.

1. It is not MY forum. It belongs to the people that post here. I'm just the moderator.

2. I do not dictate to others what they can and can't post, within the limits of 2+2 guidelines.

3. If someone is posting something you consider bad, or ridiculous, or silly or etc., then it should be easily refuted with rational arguments, logical analysis, evidence based on scientific methodology, or some form of general skepticism, or etc. It is up to you to engage and refute what is posted.

4. Freedom of expression is fully allowed in SMP within the guidelines of 2+2 posting rules. Just because some poster posts something don't assume that the moderator agrees with it. That is just silly. This is an open debate forum. I'm just here to see that things stay within the guidelines and don't get out of hand or too personal etc. And that is all.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:05 AM   #82
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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What about alcohol/tobacco dependency? Isn't this a far greater waste of tax payer money than illegal drugs? Would it be higher EV to test welfare recipients for alcohol?
I guess everyone is just gonna ignore your post bc we all do tobacco/alcohol

But yeah /thread
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:38 AM   #83
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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I guess everyone is just gonna ignore your post bc we all do tobacco/alcohol

But yeah /thread
Obv we all do it, but if the problem is wasteful spending on degenerate activities, why single out drugs lol?
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:36 AM   #84
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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If someone is posting something you consider bad, or ridiculous, or silly or etc., then it should be easily refuted with rational arguments, logical analysis, evidence based on scientific methodology, or some form of general skepticism, or etc.
Some form of general skepticism?

How do you refute somebody who is mentally ill and working from different premises to begin with?
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:52 AM   #85
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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So I donate x % of my salary to charity and it makes me feel good but I sacrifice spending x% on myself that would make me feel better but the requirements of psychological egoism are satisfied regardless.

Zeno your forum is ****ing awful fella.
Spending x% on yourself has stopped making you feel so good. Some awareness has seeped in. Doing the same things over and over again (e.g. spending on yourself) tends to eventually (although not necessarily) lead to diminishing returns.

So we change up the game and find the returns we need - in a new and more refined variation of the same game. We start doing more for others.

Now of course, some never change it up; some remain satisfied with the less refined variation of the feel-goods game. Moralists get the feel-goods by differentiating themselves from these people. They design the most elaborate of philosophies to get this most highly rarified type of feel-goods. And it feels good......for a while.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:43 AM   #86
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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1. It is not MY forum. It belongs to the people that post here. I'm just the moderator.

2. I do not dictate to others what they can and can't post, within the limits of 2+2 guidelines.

3. If someone is posting something you consider bad, or ridiculous, or silly or etc., then it should be easily refuted with rational arguments, logical analysis, evidence based on scientific methodology, or some form of general skepticism, or etc. It is up to you to engage and refute what is posted.

4. Freedom of expression is fully allowed in SMP within the guidelines of 2+2 posting rules. Just because some poster posts something don't assume that the moderator agrees with it. That is just silly. This is an open debate forum. I'm just here to see that things stay within the guidelines and don't get out of hand or too personal etc. And that is all.
You set the terms for what is acceptable and when you suggest that a more interesting question is sterilisation of welfare recipients you should probably just own its awfulness.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:56 AM   #87
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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You set the terms for what is acceptable and when you suggest that a more interesting question is sterilisation of welfare recipients you should probably just own its awfulness.
Example of how moralists get feel-goods. His game is more refined; his face is a little more stern and his body language powerful. Life and it's contents are more serious to he. Yet, take away the paradox from the thinker and we get a professor. Take away the absurd from the good and we get a moralist. Take away the morals from the contrarian and we get a bore.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:27 AM   #88
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by Zeno View Post
1. It is not MY forum. It belongs to the people that post here. I'm just the moderator.

2. I do not dictate to others what they can and can't post, within the limits of 2+2 guidelines.

3. If someone is posting something you consider bad, or ridiculous, or silly or etc., then it should be easily refuted with rational arguments, logical analysis, evidence based on scientific methodology, or some form of general skepticism, or etc. It is up to you to engage and refute what is posted.

4. Freedom of expression is fully allowed in SMP within the guidelines of 2+2 posting rules. Just because some poster posts something don't assume that the moderator agrees with it. That is just silly. This is an open debate forum. I'm just here to see that things stay within the guidelines and don't get out of hand or too personal etc. And that is all.
Do you think it's just an odd coincidence that your subforum is full of babbling racist idiots? Serious Q. On one hand, you can't control who walks in door here, on the other, it's odd that these guys all make a beeline to SMP.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:55 AM   #89
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Do you think it's just an odd coincidence that your subforum is full of babbling racist idiots? Serious Q. On one hand, you can't control who walks in door here, on the other, it's odd that these guys all make a beeline to SMP.
Full of them? Name three. And I've been posting in SMP for years, there's no "beeline".

It's better than politics, which is full of babbling fascist idiots (both left and right wing) - of which you are one, possibly the worst. The instinct to censor contrary opinions is the first instinct of fascists and oppressors. You would have done well in the Hitler Youth.

Heal yourself before criticizing others.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:40 AM   #90
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Full of them? Name three.
Lol, You ever try reading a playande/vedezzzzzz post? Tell me that isn't babbling. Also: spanky. There's three for you.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:00 AM   #91
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Babbling, sure. Hell, I'll even own that one.

3 racists though? I don't see it. Even taking your version of racism.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:03 AM   #92
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

I'll walk it back to "babbling idiots" just to be sociable.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:56 PM   #93
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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I'll walk it back to "babbling idiots" just to be sociable.
If I could choose, I would prefer a babbling idiot over an einbert.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:02 PM   #94
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie View Post
Some form of general skepticism?

How do you refute somebody who is mentally ill and working from different premises to begin with?
You don't. You talk about art or Beer. Just about any other subject of discussion is precluded from having any form of rational debate, impact, or resolution. Especially topics as contentious as politics or religion or sex, or which bathroom God uses when He takes a break from checking His stock portfolio.

Just because in your world lastcard the equation 2+2=4 does not preclude others from believing it equals 5 or the square root of the length of your mother's funny bone or any other number. Or even that 2+2 = A single slice of baloney. And that's just Math. Don't even try with other subjects.

War is good*. It elevates peoples energies and gets them out into the world so their lives are less boring and mundane and they can have a righteous feeling of fulfillment that they have contributed a wee bit to the great events of history, instead of just leading lives of quiet desperation.

*Robert Graves related something similar to this to Bertrand Russell, when discussing the early phase of the First World War, at least that is what I remember from the book Goodbye to All That.

Last edited by Zeno; 05-18-2017 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Add *
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:00 PM   #95
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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You don't. You talk about art or Beer. Just about any other subject of discussion is precluded from having any form of rational debate, impact, or resolution. Especially topics as contentious as politics or religion or sex, or which bathroom God uses when He takes a break from checking His stock portfolio.

Just because in your world lastcard the equation 2+2=4 does not preclude others from believing it equals 5 or the square root of the length of your mothers funny bone or any other number. Or even that 2+2 = A single slice of baloney. And that's just Math. Don't even try with other subjects.

War is good*. It elevates peoples energies and gets them out into the world so their lives are less boring and mundane and they can have a righteous feeling of fulfillment that they have contributed a wee bit to the great events of history, instead of just leading lives of quiet desperation.

Robert Graves related something similar to this to Bertrand Russell, when discussing the early phase of the First World War, at least that is what I remember from the book Goodbye to All That.
Shorter version: stop yer whining
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:15 PM   #96
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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War is good*. It elevates peoples energies and gets them out into the world so their lives are less boring and mundane
Have you ever read Dune? Ham fisted, boring literature, but it's saved by the fact that it's a vehicle for the author's ideas about ecology (the abstract notion), the possibilities of science without computers, human ability and war.

He see war as a necessary cleansing fire from time to time to purge the weak (of genes and philosophy). You're merely talking about making people's lives more interesting, but I reckon you two would get on like houses on fire.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:13 PM   #97
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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I'll walk it back to "babbling idiots" just to be sociable.
That's better.

Echo-chamber. This forum just isn't that, however you cut it.
Our goals for participation may be different but we're all learning here. I often play devils advocate to learn about the opposing side and their views. This comes at the cost of defending silly ideas. But maybe im learning slower than most. What do you propose Zeno should do with people like me?
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:45 PM   #98
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Do you think it's just an odd coincidence that your subforum is full of babbling racist idiots? Serious Q. On one hand, you can't control who walks in door here, on the other, it's odd that these guys all make a beeline to SMP.
Remember when they used to pretend that every thread followed the scientific method?
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:32 PM   #99
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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I'll walk it back to "babbling idiots" just to be sociable.
I just noticed: Almost 19, 000 posts since joining in 2010. A lot of time on your hands for a (implied) non-babbler. A lot of it in politics as well; and most (from a cursory look) very akin to babbling. Have you had a bad week?
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:51 AM   #100
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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I just noticed: Almost 19, 000 posts since joining in 2010. A lot of time on your hands for a (implied) non-babbler. A lot of it in politics as well; and most (from a cursory look) very akin to babbling. Have you had a bad week?
See, I didn't want this to devolve into petty personal attacks so I tried not to call out specific posters, but TS baited me into it. I shouldn't have indulged him.

But it's a fair question you asked earlier as to what should be done, and I don't have a good solution. Zeno can't control who comes in, can't make them talk about science or math. Then again, the other subforum's manage to be mostly on-topic. Politics is a cesspit full of morons, but at least people there are mostly talking about politics. Same with BFI, HF, etc. SMP uniquely seems to be guys posting gibberish and music videos at each other.
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