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Old 05-13-2017, 11:34 AM   #51
ToothSayer
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
Drug testing is just code for, "Let's find a way to reject welfare benefits."

These same self-righteous pricks cheat on their taxes and think it's cool to scam people, but hey, **** the poor, right?
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People who are able bodied but do nothing to support their own existence are rightly maligned.
Turn down the moral outrage part of your brain, and read the quote again.
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Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
Another uneducated post.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-s...b_4085773.html
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In 2012 more than 47.8 percent of families receiving food stamp were working (the highest ever), and only 13.2 percent were welfare recipients with no working adults, according to the US Department of Agriculture.

The USDA reported that, “76% of SNAP households included a child, an elderly person, or a disabled person. These vulnerable households receive 83% of all SNAP benefits.”

Not exactly the “able-bodied” folks our legislators talk about.
You really are a lot better when you're not on your moral high horse. Your tortured statistics are hilarious. Let's look at your statistics:

1. 52.2% of familiies receiving food stamps had no one working. Obviously these are the ones I'm talking about. Over half of welfare recipients do jack ****, and leech off the rest of society.

And note that we're talking families here, not individuals...so if there's a father, a mother, a cousin or two, their cousin, their brother, all living under the same roof (as say, Mexicans tend to do), and only the cousin works, these lazy pieces of **** who can't look after themselves are counted as "someone working". You then use that brush to call the entire family deserving.

2. “76% of SNAP households included a child, an elderly person, or a disabled person. These vulnerable households receive 83% of all SNAP benefits.”

Having a child or someone over 65 under the same roof makes you "vulnerable"??? That's hilarious dude. I guess about 65% of US households are "vulnerable".

Clowns at the Huff Post torturing statistics so that gullible Republican haters can drink it in...
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The fact is that you, and other cruel Republicans, simply want an excuse to deny benefits to the needy. So you blow the "drug" whistle as often, and as loud, as you can, implying that welfare recipients are lazy drug addicts, when in fact, only a tiny percentage might be.
1. Not Republican
2. Very likely far more compassionate than you - for example, I don't lazily believe that people who hold different views than me on how to achieve the best out come for all are "cruel". When Democrats failed the black community so badly, or the poor white community, making their lives worse with their policies (for example, Clinton is the reason for soaring black incarceration rates, tearing apart families and lives), I don't believe they're "cruel". Just misguided and moronic. Your demonizing of those with similar morality to you but wanting a different path, shows a pretty marked lack of compassion. The cruelest and most oppressive people in modern history, and those who destroyed the largest number of lives and hopes and freedoms of the poor for by far the longest time, have been leftists. That is simply a fact, sir. Leftism, hiding under the guise of compassion, is the least practically compassionate widespread political belief system there is in the modern world.

You really are a lot better without the lazy, holier-than-thou moralizing.
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[Research funding] - One of the most wasteful welfare programs going.
For the humanities, sure. Do you believe the same about scientific research funding?

Last edited by ToothSayer; 05-13-2017 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:54 PM   #52
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Very likely far more compassionate than you
Awww, poor baby, you're so misunderstood!
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:06 PM   #53
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Awww, poor baby, you're so misunderstood!
Excellent. I take it you concede on the substantive points. To be expected when you're quoting hilariously misused stats from HuffPost.

Really dude, your holier than thou routine is a slur on your character. If you really cared about the poor and oppressed, you'd be attacking Democrats, not Republicans. Democrats are the reason so many black people are in jail. Lack of school choice - pushed by Democrats - is a form of modern segregation.

But you don't care about the poor and oppressed. You just want to posture.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:03 PM   #54
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

lolz... your trolling attempts have gotten pretty redundant lately. Nothing new?
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:19 PM   #55
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

I'm not trolling. I'm having a conversation. You're the one trolling because you've had your ass handed to you.

It might make your brain explode to think someone can hold very different views to you and be just as moral and compassionate, but hey, you wouldn't be the first; leftists have a long history of demonizing and persecuting those that don't share their warped, well meaning but ultimately badly flawed and destructive philosophies. Just look at any number of communist countries.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:44 PM   #56
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie View Post
Your comments ITT are ignorant and offensive.



Yeah, you're happy to take tax money in the form of research grants, and wonder why everyone can't be more like you.
And you know that how exactly? How do you know what kind of things i am working on and if it is funded by the established bs industry of papers you have in mind (the publish or perish culture you have in mind maybe in my case is more like i will help your culture to perish or die trying)?


Maybe the very reason i am working extremely tangible jobs (and it is on things related to education and science i actually like most of the time) is so that one day you can understand better what you call Geometry or the interior of black holes or the beginning of the universe. Maybe it is funded from other kind of work that is useful first elsewhere in the actual society. Maybe i make more money in such tangible society improving jobs than if i were a professor right now. How exactly do you assume that i am your typical academics guy and not a maverick fighting that very system from inside and outside it?

As Schwinger said; If you cant join'em beat 'em"

I have never worked on a single project in Physics that doesn't lead to actual knowledge. I have refused to participate in the bs game that is played 90% of the time in theoretical physics where you publish to publish even if it has nothing to do with nature. I have academically always worked on actual calculations of things that are useful and refused or proved unable by nature to collaborate on projects that are highly speculative and arrogant conveniently ignoring the actual real world details. I have also worked on calculations that were important for experiments. Are experiments welfare? Is particle physics accelerators where we learn about the properties of matter and eventually spacetime welfare? Are CERN and SLAC welfare? How about satellite physics experiments?


Offensive? How am i offensive? You are the offensive one here that arrogantly assumed whatever you wanted. And you have no excuse because even if you have no way of knowing my real name/life path yet to judge better you have known who i have been all these years here and have enough examples to know that i have often worked to improve what we collectively know about the world and math as a community here.

PS: Thanks for making me waste 30% my only break for the day. I would never think any of these nasty things about you. Not before and not after this.

Last edited by masque de Z; 05-13-2017 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:08 PM   #57
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Are experiments welfare?
I never used the word welfare. Either you are funded by tax dollars or you aren't. I agree it was a presumption to say that you are, although you don't seem to be saying categorically that you are not.

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Offensive? How am i offensive?
It is offensive to suggest that recipients of state benefits are not to be trusted to spend money wisely, which is a sure implication of drug testing.

Since, apparently, you don't think that all state benefits should be drug tested, precisely which ones do you think should?
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:24 PM   #58
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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I will refuse to believe people on welfare are dead weight. If we see them differently, if we see ourselves in their position and empathize we should care and caring means you do your best to protect them from bad habits that will never help them recover their true capabilities to prosper and be finally happy in a less than superficial short lived manner. You offer incentives and guidance. Success starts with becoming responsible first.

Cynicism is the ultimate form of defeat.
I think there is a distinction between saying thay they're deadweight as human beings and saying that they're deadweight from an economic perspective.

I don't disagree that offering incentives is a good thing, and from a technical perspective that's what the Earned Income Tax Credit is designed to do. I just think that it's useful to acknowledge the reality of the situation. Think about what happens if you try to drug test people: It costs money to administer, you would need to establish an appeals process for people who failed drug tests and claimed it was due to a supplement (or whatever), a whole cottage industry would spring up helping welfare recipients beat drug tests, etc etc. It's just not worth it.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:25 PM   #59
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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It is offensive to suggest that recipients of state benefits are not to be trusted to spend money wisely, which is a sure implication of drug testing.
Have you ever been to some of the shadier parts of the US? Ever been around very poor people in the US? Actually lived with them?

It's like everything you know comes from a PC bible.

A good percentage of poor, able-bodied people suck. They're stupid, irresponsible, wasteful, have high breeding rates, low both-parents-at-home rates (among certain minorities such as blacks it's under 30%), and high drug use. They're a scourge, and handing out free money helps neither these people nor their offspring nor society in the long run. When that money goes on drugs, it's even worse.

This is just reality, however offensive you find it. The truth is offensive sometimes. If you don't believe some offensive truths, the odds are near certain that you don't understand reality.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:47 PM   #60
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Drug testing has been tried and the overhead is basically just a windfall for whichever crony gets the state testing contract. Even the money theoretically "saved" from denied benefits isn't really saved (if it even "covered" overhead, which it wasn't close to doing)- the crime rate among the denied population would go up, and if they're stealing anywhere near parity, nobody wins, and if we're locking them up to stop them, we're losing even more. Say what you will about the incentives (and there's plenty to say), but adding mass drug testing to the mix is just empirically stupid.

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Old 05-13-2017, 05:57 PM   #61
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

^Yep. But what if the cost was $1 per test instead of $40?

I also don't accept that people denied funds will just steal. Heroine addicts will, for sure. But most drug users are recreational, not hardened addicts.

From personal experience, having known a couple of alcoholics, they didn't stop until they lost all sources of funds and were forced to make a choice.

The main problem I have with welfare for the able bodied is that

a) it's a backstop. If you know it's work or starve, you make a little bit more sure you keep your job. That you train for a job for you can keep. Etc. It alters the incentive structure and the avoidance structure.
b) It creates perpetuated dysfunctional cultures and regions. Take Europe and the widespread Islamic fundamentalism in Molenbeek, for example. That would not be possible without a welfare state. The welfare lures them, allows them to form and perpetuate homogeneous, dysfunctional, non-productive ghettos, and allows them to avoid integration.

There's more, but I think it's a big question mark and not at all a given that people overall, and especially the poor, are better off with welfare than without.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 05-13-2017 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:04 PM   #62
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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^Yep. But what if the cost was $1 per test instead of $40?
My gut is that it's still a bad idea (in the same way giving homeless **** housing has turned out cheaper than dealing with all the externalities of them roaming around), but it's at least a new question then.

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The main problem I have with welfare for the able bodied is that

a) it's a backstop. If you know it's work or starve, you make a little bit more sure you keep your job. That you train for a job for you can keep. Etc. It alters the incentive structure and the avoidance structure.
That's predicated on productive employment potentially existing for everybody if they'd just go find it. I don't think that's true today and we're certainly headed far away from that with increasing population and better automation. On the margins, I'm sure some people would find ways to take care of themselves at a reasonable standard of living, but it's very hard for me to believe that's accessible to everybody simultaneously if they just tried.

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b) It creates perpetuated dysfunctional cultures and regions. Take Europe and the widespread Islamic fundamentalism in Molenbeek, for example. That would not be possible without a welfare state. The welfare lures them, allows them to form and perpetuate homogeneous, dysfunctional, non-productive ghettos, and allows them to avoid integration.
Yeah, this kind of thing is a *****. Even in far less extreme versions, it's a *****. It has long been clear to me that any long-term welfare state is either going to be predicated on something like "hey we just solved fusion free kittens for everybody for 1000 years" or on policies that aren't even expressible in the modern climate.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:25 PM   #63
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

It's pretty scary when you look at the dynamics of breeding.

With current breeding rates, the timelines looking like this over 4 generations:

100 intelligent, hardworking, economically functional people:

100 -> 60 -> 36 -> 21

50 lower intelligence, poor forward planning skills, poor emotional control, largely economically useless, non-functional people.

50 -> 70 -> 98 -> 137 -> 192

(there are 5 generation of these in the same time frame because they have children far younger).

You have a flip from 2:1 productive/social fabric supporting:nonproductive/social fabric destroying to nearly 10:1 the other way in 4 generations.

It's not hypothetical. This is what breeding rates in the West looks like. The left hand side is maybe born in 1980, and the second generation is growing up now. The inevitability of this is terrifying.

Hopefully forward planning skills, intelligence, emotional control, reward delay skills, worth ethic and energy aren't strongly genetic traits. If they are, welfare from the well-meaning will cause the decline of the west.
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:29 PM   #64
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
It's pretty scary when you look at the dynamics of breeding.

With current breeding rates, the timelines looking like this over 4 generations:

100 intelligent, hardworking, economically functional people:

100 -> 60 -> 36 -> 21

50 lower intelligence, poor forward planning skills, poor emotional control, largely economically useless, non-functional people.

50 -> 70 -> 98 -> 137 -> 192

(there are 5 generation of these in the same time frame because they have children far younger).

You have a flip from 2:1 productive/social fabric supporting:nonproductive/social fabric destroying to nearly 10:1 the other way in 4 generations.

It's not hypothetical. This is what breeding rates in the West looks like. The left hand side is maybe born in 1980, and the second generation is growing up now. The inevitability of this is terrifying.

Hopefully forward planning skills, intelligence, emotional control, reward delay skills, worth ethic and energy aren't strongly genetic traits. If they are, welfare from the well-meaning will cause the decline of the west.
That has been an argument in the US for the last couple hundred years. Obviously, this has caused the US to become the poorest nation in the world.
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:13 PM   #65
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
It's pretty scary when you look at the dynamics of breeding.
................Snip............


The inevitability of this is terrifying.

......snip............

Don't be hyperbolic . You are engaging in the same type of hysterical spew pumped out by the Global Warming Lefties and Green Party Fanatics. People you constantly make fun of.
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Old 05-14-2017, 02:21 AM   #66
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
A good percentage of poor, able-bodied people suck. They're stupid, irresponsible, wasteful, have high breeding rates, low both-parents-at-home rates (among certain minorities such as blacks it's under 30%), and high drug use. They're a scourge, and handing out free money helps neither these people nor their offspring nor society in the long run. When that money goes on drugs, it's even worse.
A larger percentage of the rich, able-bodied "suck". They're stupid, irresponsible and especially wasteful, with higher drug use rates and low both-parents-at home rates. Worst of all, they often know better.

Only the middle-class is virtuous; because self-flattery is the sincerest form of masturbation.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:45 AM   #67
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

The breeding in the wrong cultural direction is a very valid and not at all racist argument. Obviously only irresponsible (and crappy superficial religious principles ) morons that have very limited income (at start at least) will have 3-4 kids and give them such difficult lives. Most well educated people recognize how hard it is to properly raise children and have 1-2 or at most 3 if they are well secured financially. And some not even have any. What a loss in comparison actually. Those that are best equipped to be better likely parents do not become and the others that are careless go for it like there is no tomorrow.

The true benefit of taking care of the people on welfare to bring them to a progress sustainable trajectory of both assistance and rewarded responsibility is in the trillions long term. Yes it is. A lifelong worth of negative behavior interacts with others and becomes an exponential monster of problems. And it also gives racists on the other side all kinds of pathetic blanket arguments that divide societies further over BS superficial crap issues that do not deal with actual solutions.


PS Charlie. I came back home 1h30 min ago. What was that ? 9am to 11pm with a couple 1 hour breaks? What have i done to help society? haha. I deal in education and science all my life. And you will eventually find out what i mean about time too when i am damn good and ready or when they get it before me.
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:47 AM   #68
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Originally Posted by masque de Z View Post


Maybe the very reason i am working extremely tangible jobs (and it is on things related to education and science i actually like most of the time) is so that one day you can understand better what you call Geometry or the interior of black holes or the beginning of the universe. Maybe it is funded from other kind of work that is useful first elsewhere in the actual society. Maybe i make more money in such tangible society improving jobs than if i were a professor right now. How exactly do you assume that i am your typical academics guy and not a maverick fighting that very system from inside and outside it?

As Schwinger said; If you cant join'em beat 'em"

I have never worked on a single project in Physics that doesn't lead to actual knowledge. I have refused to participate in the bs game that is played 90% of the time in theoretical physics where you publish to publish even if it has nothing to do with nature. I have academically always worked on actual calculations of things that are useful and refused or proved unable by nature to collaborate on projects that are highly speculative and arrogant conveniently ignoring the actual real world details. I have also worked on calculations that were important for experiments. Are experiments welfare? Is particle physics accelerators where we learn about the properties of matter and eventually spacetime welfare? Are CERN and SLAC welfare? How about satellite physics experiments?
Something tells me that the thought of being a run of the mill pure math Phd is hilarious even though you are smarter than at least 90% of them.
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:00 AM   #69
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

They should definitely remove medicare and social security eligibility from those who have been prescribed opioids. Those ****ers are completely useless and have no chance of becoming useful.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:40 PM   #70
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

How about 16-24 hours of community service to get your welfare? I'll hang up and listen, Love your show.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:36 PM   #71
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Welfare is essentially charity. Charity is never just for the sake of charity. There is no such thing as a truly selfless act.
What do you mean by a "truly selfless act"?
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:23 AM   #72
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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What do you mean by a "truly selfless act"?
Refer to psychological egoism.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:06 AM   #73
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Refer to psychological egoism.
Ok, so if we agreed 100%, it really doesn't matter.

I feed my child because it makes me sad to see him hungry and happy to see him grow. OOOOH NOOOOOO, it has an explanation! I wanted the world to work in such a way that I do things for other people that has nothing to do with my feelings!
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:05 AM   #74
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

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Ok, so if we agreed 100%, it really doesn't matter.

I feed my child because it makes me sad to see him hungry and happy to see him grow. OOOOH NOOOOOO, it has an explanation! I wanted the world to work in such a way that I do things for other people that has nothing to do with my feelings!
That's not really a good scenario to use when discussing psychological egoism. Probably a better example would be to look at donating money to charity because there are less factors at play when compared to feeding a dependent.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:09 PM   #75
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Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

So I donate x % of my salary to charity and it makes me feel good but I sacrifice spending x% on myself that would make me feel better but the requirements of psychological egoism are satisfied regardless.

Zeno your forum is ****ing awful fella.
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