Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Science, Math, and Philosophy Discussions regarding science, math, and/or philosophy.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2017, 10:52 PM   #26
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Kind of a noble eugenics? I like it!
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2017, 11:35 PM   #27
krunic
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,512
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Welfare is essentially charity. Charity is never just for the sake of charity. There is no such thing as a truly selfless act.

Some people use charity to make themselves feel better. They like seeing people of lesser means acquire resources.

Some people use charity as a power trip. They use charity (or unusually large tips, expensive gifts, etc.) as a way to feel like a bigshot, and to show off how much they can afford to give away.

Others use charity as an excuse to judge other people's lifestyles and choices. For example, the person who gives money to a homeless person and then regrets it when they see the homeless person using the money to buy something they disapprove of (alcohol, drugs, etc.).
krunic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 01:16 AM   #28
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

It's actually completely different. I'm sure a lot of tax payers wouldn't give money to welfare recipients if it were optional.
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 01:33 AM   #29
masque de Z
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
masque de Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stanford, CA USA
Posts: 8,378
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
Should people have to pass a drug test to receive SS benefits? How about a library card?
SS benefits they have worked their lives to have so its in a way owed to them so no testing. But if they volunteer it can help them with maybe a bonus or other goods. Same for library card people. This is a trivial thing. A person with access to library that uses drugs has a chance to fight against their addiction because of access to educational resources so it would be wrong to deprive or restrict them the access for drug usage. Of course protecting people that go to library from criminal elements or people under influence may be an issue to consider also as another thing but you can do both.

My ideas are supposed to help people, not penalize them or point fingers or anything.

We are all addicted to all kinds of things. Even good behavior or work is something one can be addicted to lol. Its all what pleases the brain often. This is why its very hard to do what is good for you because it doesnt near term please the brain. So design a world that doesn't ignore pleasure but exploits it instead creatively!

This is the major premise of scientific society; to design a world where people enjoy their lives and what they do and it is scientifically organized (and always adapting and evolving with more knowledge) to make that possible with work they enjoy doing and fits their pleasure generation processes in a healthy manner. We will turn addiction to the ultimate force of progress with my ideas about scientific society. This is why its called scientific society, it turns everything into progress even the abyss itself. We can learn from everything, especially our failures.
masque de Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:08 AM   #30
Aaron W.
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 27,206
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

What is the cost to run the drug testing program and what are the expected savings from cutting people off who are determined to be on drugs?

At least, I'm assuming that this would be intended the consequence of testing... it's not really explicit in the OP. Maybe we should just pay for the drug tests for fun.
Aaron W. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 02:55 AM   #31
yukoncpa
veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: ID
Posts: 2,823
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
What is the cost to run the drug testing program and what are the expected savings from cutting people off who are determined to be on drugs?

At least, I'm assuming that this would be intended the consequence of testing... it's not really explicit in the OP. Maybe we should just pay for the drug tests for fun.
This has been tested in a few States and so far, the administrative costs have surpassed any savings.
yukoncpa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 04:31 AM   #32
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
What is the cost to run the drug testing program and what are the expected savings from cutting people off who are determined to be on drugs?

At least, I'm assuming that this would be intended the consequence of testing... it's not really explicit in the OP. Maybe we should just pay for the drug tests for fun.
Yeah my research has shown it's -EV. In Australia if you fail the drug test, you're given a cashless debit card - so you still get the welfare money, you just can't spend it on drugs or alcohol. The drug testing is just another expense on top...
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 05:38 AM   #33
masque de Z
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
masque de Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stanford, CA USA
Posts: 8,378
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

There is definitely plus EV if we can help some people to not be addicted though. The value of that for society is substantial.
masque de Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 06:35 AM   #34
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by masque de Z View Post
There is definitely plus EV if we can help some people to not be addicted though. The value of that for society is substantial.
Drug testing welfare recipients has nothing to do with helping people not to be addicted. It's proven addiction sufferers don't respond to punitive action and this policy in no way contributes to getting people clean.
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:41 AM   #35
masque de Z
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
masque de Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stanford, CA USA
Posts: 8,378
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

You do not punish and abandon. You offer a program to recover and get back all blocked funding upon participation and completion plus benefits. Recovery is a condition for getting all funds back. This is not punishing if it comes with a guidance and recovery program.

What is the alternative, to do nothing and let the addicted remain in the death/bad health spiral they are under the financial blessing of the state?

You also reward for being responsible user of assistance that has primary purpose to protect you from grave health dangers and loss of essential dignities not to be used for drugs but to be used to help you become self sustainable if possible.

I do not believe in a welfare state that doesn't aim first to make the welfare assistance a past experience for all receivers (if not long term compromised for health reasons, life adversity etc). Most people should want to be productive members of their community. If they do not but insist on receiving help from that community they are losers and parasites. It's one thing to be unable to find a job and another to reject opportunities offered to you that are reasonable and appropriate for your skills for example (the state should try to help recipients get jobs). Scientific society will offer everyone (including convicted prisoners) a basic spartan lifestyle and unlimited education unconditionally but this is not yet possible under current system. Current system should demand responsibility.

If it were up to me i would make a condition for all recipients of welfare that are not compromised by health issues to participate in free educational skill developing programs too. It would be then insulting to allow them to be drug users also without consequences lol.

Last edited by masque de Z; 05-12-2017 at 08:00 AM.
masque de Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:53 AM   #36
Trolly McTrollson
Under your bridges
 
Trolly McTrollson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Midwestern America
Posts: 18,989
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by masque de Z View Post
SS benefits they have worked their lives to have so its in a way owed to them so no testing.
So what if someone has worked for 10-20 years, loses their job through automation, and applies for unemployment benefits? Still gonna make those people piss in a cup like criminals?
Trolly McTrollson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 09:40 PM   #37
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,586
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Drug testing is just code for, "Let's find a way to reject welfare benefits."

These same self-righteous pricks cheat on their taxes and think it's cool to scam people, but hey, **** the poor, right?
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 10:11 PM   #38
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

The ****ed up part is that the poor, i.e. low-standing socioeconomic populaces actually do less illegal drugs on average than the general population!
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:26 PM   #39
ToothSayer
Pooh-Bah
 
ToothSayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,214
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
Drug testing is just code for, "Let's find a way to reject welfare benefits."

These same self-righteous pricks cheat on their taxes and think it's cool to scam people, but hey, **** the poor, right?
People who are able bodied but do nothing to support their own existence are rightly maligned.
ToothSayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:41 PM   #40
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
People who are able bodied but do nothing to support their own existence are rightly maligned.
I don't blame them. Society isn't for everyone.
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 11:47 PM   #41
ToothSayer
Pooh-Bah
 
ToothSayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,214
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Except gathering your own water and food, making your own shelter, taking away and burying your own rubbish, has nothing to do with society.
ToothSayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 01:14 AM   #42
meale
Pooh-Bah
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 5,582
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
Except gathering your own water and food, making your own shelter, taking away and burying your own rubbish, has nothing to do with society.
Are you saying welfare recipients can't do this? "Supporting your own existence" != working for a living.
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 02:24 AM   #43
Malachii
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,173
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
What specifically is wrong with masque's idea of paying welfare recipients to pass drug tests?

You'd get a basic small amount of assistance regardless, just enough to survive on. If you want more, you do a drug test. If you want more again, there can be other programs - volunteering, public garden or rubbish cleanup work, etc, that give you a little bit more again. Not as much as a job, but better than basic welfare.

Incentivizing positive behavior seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do. People get lazy and stuck when they can sit on their ass and receive a paycheck without doing anything for it. What's wrong with waving a carrot for acting in a way that has social and personal benefits for them. Reward is esteem building as well, something the poor and desperate are in need of.
Administrative costs. People on welfare are already a deadweight loss to society from an economic standpoint in that they produce almost nothing of value. If you expend resources drug testing them, it's just throwing good money after bad.
Malachii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 02:30 AM   #44
Malachii
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,173
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Agree wih you otherwise, but people receiving welfare generally have kids and actually typically work (in very low skilled jobs, but it's work nevertheless.) They don't have time to do volunteer stuff, and who cares if they get high in their private time. So from a practical standpoint, just let them be.
Malachii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 04:18 AM   #45
lastcardcharlie
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
lastcardcharlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: QED, I think
Posts: 7,324
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by masque de Z View Post
Most people should want to be productive members of their community.
WTF have you ever produced, aside from some crackpot conjecture about how time doesn't exist?
lastcardcharlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 04:46 AM   #46
masque de Z
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
masque de Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stanford, CA USA
Posts: 8,378
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

I will refuse to believe people on welfare are dead weight. If we see them differently, if we see ourselves in their position and empathize we should care and caring means you do your best to protect them from bad habits that will never help them recover their true capabilities to prosper and be finally happy in a less than superficial short lived manner. You offer incentives and guidance. Success starts with becoming responsible first.

Cynicism is the ultimate form of defeat.
masque de Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 04:57 AM   #47
masque de Z
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
masque de Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Stanford, CA USA
Posts: 8,378
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie View Post
WTF have you ever produced, aside from some crackpot conjecture about how time doesn't exist?
Is this how YOU define me?

LOL. I will let the next 24h answer that question for me and leave you wondering about the past 365 days and years you have known me. I work for a living by the way and i also spend time to help people for free sometimes in person. I hadn't had a totally free day for at least 6 months now by the way. Most people at least get a weekend off. And somewhere online, that has nothing to do with this place here, this small part of my life is also documented with comments about its quality from people within my general geographical area. I have never worked in anything that undermines society or exploits other people and their weaknesses.
masque de Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 05:11 AM   #48
lastcardcharlie
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
lastcardcharlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: QED, I think
Posts: 7,324
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by masque de Z View Post
Is this how YOU define me?
Your comments ITT are ignorant and offensive.

Quote:
I work for a living by the way...
Yeah, you're happy to take tax money in the form of research grants, and wonder why everyone can't be more like you.
lastcardcharlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 09:45 AM   #49
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,586
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
People who are able bodied but do nothing to support their own existence are rightly maligned.
Another uneducated post.

Quote:
In 2012 more than 47.8 percent of families receiving food stamp were working (the highest ever), and only 13.2 percent were welfare recipients with no working adults, according to the US Department of Agriculture.

The USDA reported that, “76% of SNAP households included a child, an elderly person, or a disabled person. These vulnerable households receive 83% of all SNAP benefits.”

Not exactly the “able-bodied” folks our legislators talk about.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gary-s...b_4085773.html

The fact is that you, and other cruel Republicans, simply want an excuse to deny benefits to the needy. So you blow the "drug" whistle as often, and as loud, as you can, implying that welfare recipients are lazy drug addicts, when in fact, only a tiny percentage might be.
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 09:46 AM   #50
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,586
Re: Should welfare recipients be drug tested?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lastcardcharlie View Post
Your comments ITT are ignorant and offensive.



Yeah, you're happy to take tax money in the form of research grants, and wonder why everyone can't be more like you.
One of the most wasteful welfare programs going.
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online