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Old 04-29-2017, 01:06 AM   #26
plaaynde
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
It's just an image I grabbed off Google images; if you knew about gay issues you'd know that it's accurate. If you want an authoritative source, here's data from The Williams Institute at UCLA law school.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/



....snip....
FYP
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:23 AM   #27
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by boganomics View Post
It's precisely because he's gay - usually they're called bigoted because of their nutcase views, so with Milo they get to do the whole 'no a gay guy agrees with me therefore I can't be homophobic'.

Toothsayer:

If you want to criticise someone's thinking, don't be making such a huge error while doing so. Pokerologist said that hardcore homophobes are often repressed gays. You then went on a rant against ALL homophobes being gay. I mean that's literally the first example I'd give to someone who asked what a strawman argument was, and then you went on to tell him to use his brain!

And no, you can't appeal to the word 'often' there, because you just claimed that a lot of lesbians are that way because they're trying to deal with previous abuse. Very similar terms, equally as ambiguous. Notice that nobody's strawmanning that to hell and bringing up statistics to show that omg not literally every single lesbian out there was raped.

By the way, with your whole discarding of psychiatric definitions and diagnoses, you just allowed yourself to make up your own diagnosis. Many beliefs, orientations, even physical traits that you would consider normal would classify someone as having a disorder under your criteria depending on where that person is in the world, or what time they live in. I doubt you'd call these people ill.

So I guess that's how you argue:

-abstract away the parameters (whilst disregarding an entire field of professionals!) until you can assert diagnoses according to your own feelings. claim this is thinking about it logically.
-blatantly strawman your opponent
-call them illogical
This is why I proposed a Like button in ATF. Nice analysis.
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:32 AM   #28
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by plaaynde View Post
Time for the obvious

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Old 04-29-2017, 01:35 AM   #29
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by plaaynde View Post
This is why I proposed a Like button in ATF. Nice analysis.
In tooth's defense, he said "a lot" instead of "alot."*

*I didn't actually check.
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Old 04-29-2017, 02:41 AM   #30
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Re: Sex GTO

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FYP
Took my ukulele and played along!
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:21 AM   #31
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by boganomics View Post
Toothsayer:

If you want to criticise someone's thinking, don't be making such a huge error while doing so.
Even if I accept your criticism, an unrelated thinking error is you just trying to throw out a red herring. There's a lot of meat in my post, but you're too cowardly to address it. It's much easier to virtue signal like a good sheep.

Quote:
Pokerologist said that hardcore homophobes are often repressed gays. You then went on a rant against ALL homophobes being gay.
No, not at all. It is obvious what I'm saying. Obviously everyone reading this knows that not EVERY homophobe is a repressed homosexual.

The errors are all are in Pokerologist's claim. But you're too much of a coward and virtue signalling sheep to address that. Let's look at his claim:

Quote:
Hardcore homophobics are often repressed homosexuals themselves.
Note the weasel-worded imprecision. What is a "hardcore" homophobe? Is it someone who's made the argument that OP has? That I have? What is "often"? More than 50%? 10%?

What Pokerologist did was attempt a weasel-worded personal attack on me and the OP, because he's too much of a coward and too light on facts to argue any of the actual points being made. It's an attempt to smear however he can, to cast aspersions on any argument that doesn't agree that gays are healthy and normal. It's a very effective technique, casting aspersions like that - it's what Trump did to his opponents and what the gay lobby has used to change public opinion - but it's also cowardly and dishonest and beneath SMP imo.

Quote:
I mean that's literally the first example I'd give to someone who asked what a strawman argument was, and then you went on to tell him to use his brain!
No, it's you not following the argument.

Quote:
And no, you can't appeal to the word 'often' there, because you just claimed that a lot of lesbians are that way because they're trying to deal with previous abuse. Very similar terms, equally as ambiguous. Notice that nobody's strawmanning that to hell and bringing up statistics to show that omg not literally every single lesbian out there was raped.
Again, there's no strawmanning except in your head.

Quote:
By the way, with your whole discarding of psychiatric definitions and diagnoses, you just allowed yourself to make up your own diagnosis.
I didn't do any such thing. I cast aspersions on the entire field of psychiatry, which is a joke, and many of the classifications, arbitrary. You can see that simply by comparing the rates of Ritalin prescription and ADHD diagnoses in different Western countries.

You're in fact using an appeal to authority by invoking psychiatrists/the DSM. That very same appeal to authority used in a different jurisdiction, or not that long ago, would result in your claiming that gays should be forcibly treated and chemically castrated. I'm surprised you don't realize what shaky ground you're trying to stand on by appealing to this (useless, zero credibility) authority.
Quote:
Many beliefs, orientations, even physical traits that you would consider normal would classify someone as having a disorder under your criteria depending on where that person is in the world, or what time they live in. I doubt you'd call these people ill.
I'm using the psychiatrist's own criteria to show that homosexuality should be classified as a disorder.
Homosexuality is a mental condition that:

- Greatly interferes with normal functioning and participating in major normal life activities.
- Has numerous and severe co-morbidities, even after accounting for the difficulties it causes. Both behavior-caused and seemingly condition-linked comordities.
- Is correlated strongly with suffering childhood abuse (in bisexuals, which make up the bulk of MSM/WSW).

I mean, I'm glad the DSM doesn't list homosexuality. I don't believe it should - in fact the DSM shouldn't list half of the things it does. Plus there are hugely negative political and personal implications for gay people if it was listed. So it's great that psychiatrists have stayed out of homosexuality. But following their own criteria for inclusion, homosexuality is more a disorder than many of the things currently listed in the DSM.

But this is all boring. Let's see how objective you are before we go further. Does transsexuality - where someone born male believes and feels like they're a woman - meet the definition of a mental disorder? Of a dysfunctional dysmorphia?

Quote:
So I guess that's how you argue:

-abstract away the parameters (whilst disregarding an entire field of professionals!) until you can assert diagnoses according to your own feelings. claim this is thinking about it logically.
Quote:
-blatantly strawman your opponent
-call them illogical
I am happy to discuss the meat of what I've said. This thread is people blatantly personally attacking and strawmanning and throwing out red herrings again the OP and me. But you side with them because you're a virtue signalling sheep.

Ironically, had we had this thread 50 years ago, I'd be arguing that homosexuality shouldn't be classified as a disorder, that homosexuals should be left alone to live their private lives, and I'd be called a closet homosexual like I am now by the same people claiming I'm gay now. And you would call me someone who makes up his own definitions and ignores the entire "professional" field of psychiatry. It's ****ing hilarious how sheeplike you people are. You're a prisoner of the fashionable beliefs of the age.

An objective look at homosexuality properly classifies it as a quite serious disorder

Last edited by ToothSayer; 04-29-2017 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 04-29-2017, 09:49 AM   #32
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Re: Sex GTO

Men have a 100% higher chance of dying of testicular cancer than those who are not men. Therefore being a man properly classifies as a serious disorder.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:32 AM   #33
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
Men have a 100% higher chance of dying of
testicular cancer than those who are not men.
Therefore being a man properly classifies as a serious disorder.
Like all the other virtue signallers in this thread, you're making a silly strawman.

Something that's necessary for normal functioning yet has sometimes bad side effects is not a disorder.

Something that's unnecessary for normal functioning (being turned on by men rather than women as a man is not necessary for healthy functioning) and has severe side effects and quality of life effects and comorbidites is a disorder.

This isn't hard man. Even the meanest intelligence can see the silliness of your comment.

One has to wonder why you keep throwing off these silly comments and bad science and posting studies with 30 students in the deep south, with extremely weak effects as if that proves something about the entire population.

What are you afraid of, Brian? Why do you turn science and reason on its head, and throw out desperate strawmen, if truth is on your side?
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:33 AM   #34
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Re: Sex GTO

Mate,

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
There's a lot of meat in my post, but you're too cowardly to address it.
Not really, you just threw out a bunch of numbers and said ARE YOU REALLY CLAIMING THEY'RE ALL HOMOPHOBES? Very little substance. Any claims of it not being a strawman are lol because your post literally contained nothing except rebuttals explicitly against the idea of all homophobes being repressed.

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
I'm using the psychiatrist's own criteria to show that homosexuality should be classified as a disorder.
This is fantastic, you went from saying that the psychiatrist's criteria is worthless to using it as a tool to classify homosexuality as a disorder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
- Is correlated strongly with suffering childhood abuse (in bisexuals, which make up the bulk of MSM/WSW).
Holy ****, citation needed, for both points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
But this is all boring. Let's see how objective you are before we go further. Does transsexuality - where someone born male believes and feels like they're a woman - meet the definition of a mental disorder? Of a dysfunctional dysmorphia?
I'm actually not sure, and was thinking earlier ITT about the inconsistency in me thinking (off the hip) that it probably is. I would argue that it's a lot more black and white, and had a paragraph written out, but I'm sure we could find a better version of any argument I have with some quick googling.

....

I mean look, the main problem I have here is that you're simultaneously taking the argument to a place where it very quickly becomes abstract and undefinable and at the same time trying to assert an objective truth. Without the DSM then mental illness and what classifies as a disorder is an incredibly complex conversation, but you then use a few simple rules which are not at all foolproof and are all like 'SO THEREFORE ANY OBJECTIVE PERSON COULD SEE THIS'. Is an athiest in the bible belt mentally ill? A Christian in a majority muslim country?

You should take a moment to consider how many times you labelled me a sheep and victimised yourself in your responses. I haven't called you a homophobe, haven't assumed any prejudies, and I'm not virtue signalling at all. Hell there are barely any virtue signalling points to be had with homosexuality anymore, that boat sailed years ago. I've done nothing except argue with your points. You on the other hand have decried non-existent personal attacks against yourself, claimed you've been strawmanned (by someone pointing out a 100% strawman by yourself), and said we're all sheep multiple times. Pretty weak

Now I will make some assumptions! You frequently get called a homophobe in life, maybe because you bring forward shaky (at best) arguments in a tone-deaf manner, or maybe because you're actually a homophobe. You can't handle the criticism, so you let yourself fall victim to the inference error that because a few of the people arguing with you are overzealous silly virtue-signallers, this applies to everyone. Someone disagrees with your scorching hot take on homosexuality -> they must be an SJW sheep who can't measure up to your supreme rationality. Thus whenever a debate is had you're quickly reduced to throwing a tantrum and acting like everyone is an illogical moron personally attacking you.

Pretty sad, really

Last edited by boganomics; 04-29-2017 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:53 AM   #35
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by boganomics View Post
This is fantastic, you went from saying that the psychiatrist's criteria is worthless to using it as a tool to classify homosexuality as a disorder.
No, it's called assuming your opponent's argument and then arguing within that.

Quote:
Quote:
- Is correlated strongly with suffering childhood abuse (in bisexuals, which make up the bulk of MSM/WSW).
Holy ****, citation needed, for both points.
This is annoying. I'm getting railed on by people like plaaynade and you who don't even the most basic facts in this field. Perhaps read a little of the literature first? The above is well known fact and not at all controversial, like the suicide rate graph that plaaynade was so ignorant he didn't even know that that was also a fact.

Where is your Holy ****, citation needed for the guy who claim that homophobes are OFTEN repressed homosexuals? Where is your complaint about Pokerologist's implied ad hominem? It doesn't' exist, because you're trying to bat for a side, rather than caring about objectivity.

Quote:
I'm actually not sure, and was thinking earlier ITT about the inconsistency in me thinking (off the hip) that it probably is. I would argue that it's a lot more black and white, and had a paragraph written out, but I'm sure we could find a better version of any argument I have with some quick googling.
OK, so you're at least a transphobe, or willing to lean that way. That scores some points.

Quote:
I mean look, the main problem I have here is that you're simultaneously taking the argument to a place where it very quickly becomes abstract and undefinable and at the same time trying to assert an objective truth. Without the DSM then mental illness and what classifies as a disorder is an incredibly complex conversation
WITH the DSM, what classifies as mental illness is an incredibly complex conversation. The DSM changes nothing about what's objectively classifiable, any more than the pronouncements of the pope do. There's no real science or even reason behind the DSM. It's a social tool to classify, cage and "treat" people who are socially disruptive or act in ways contrary to their "rational' interests. One that necessarily has to fit in with social norms (hence why homosexuality used to be called a forcibly treatable disorder - the science hasn't advanced at all). The bulk of it is not a thing of science or even objectivity.

So someone saying the lack of listing in the DSM means anything is just a load of nonsense, IMO. The best you can say is that the prevailing fashionable opinion of psychiatrists is that it's not prudent to classify homosexuality as a mental illness. An opinion I agree with, by the way.

Quote:
, but you then use a few simple rules which are not at all foolproof and are all like 'SO THEREFORE ANY OBJECTIVE PERSON COULD SEE THIS'. Is an athiest in the bible belt mentally ill? A Christian in a majority muslim country?
Classification is far from foolproof. I'm willing to discuss the criteria for what is and isnt' a disorder. But using what we generally use for other disorders, I'd argue very strongly that homosexuality fits that pattern. That seems to get people pissed off and screaming homophobe. Not sure why.

Quote:
You should take a moment to consider how many times you labelled me a sheep and victimised yourself in your responses. I haven't called you a homophobe, haven't assumed any prejudies, and I'm not virtue signalling at all. Hell there are barely any virtue signalling points to be had with homosexuality anymore, that boat sailed years ago.
It's just a religious knee jerk reaction now. See someone criticizing homosexuality?
- You're a "homophobe".
- You're secretly gay yourself
- You're a hateful person.

I mean, look at the cavalcade of clowns in this thread - not knowing the first thing about the issue - and throwing out Hitler, closet gay, etc personal attacks. Ironically, they're operating under the the same thought-free instinct that created the Hitler Youth or gay bashers. It's sad. I'd like to think SMP is above that, but clearly it isn't.

But I'm happy to get off this topic and argue the meat of it. If only someone would! People are afraid to however; saying that homosexuality is anything than normal and fine is an enormous social taboo, and people are sheep.

Quote:
Now I will make some assumptions! You frequently get called a homophobe in life, maybe because you bring forward shaky (at best) arguments in a tone-deaf manner, or maybe because you're actually a homophobe.
I've never been called a homophobe in real life. In real life I pretend to be a liberal, because of the prevalence of bigots like you who throw around lower-brain-stem slurs like "homophobe".

Quote:
You can't handle the criticism, so you let yourself fall victim to the inference error that because a few of the people arguing with you are overzealous silly virtue-signallers, this applies to everyone. Someone disagrees with your scorching hot take on homosexuality -> they must be an SJW sheep who can't measure up to your supreme rationality.

Sad!
No. It's a question whether you argue the meat or not. You don't. Your reaction to my posts in this thread were to attack me (my strawmen and logical errors are far from the most egregious in this thread) and suggest I was a member of an undesirable outclass of people known as "homophobes" rather than argue the facts.

Humbly - I like you - I suggest you work on your self awareness. You don't even realize what you're doing.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 04-29-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:07 AM   #36
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
Like all the other virtue signallers in this thread, you're making a silly strawman.
Saying that you should seek out the sisters of homosexual males because they are more likely to be cock-crazy is virtue signaling?

Quote:
Something that's necessary for normal functioning yet has sometimes bad side effects is not a disorder.

Something that's unnecessary for normal functioning (being turned on by men rather than women as a man is not necessary for healthy functioning) and has severe side effects and quality of life effects and comorbidites is a disorder.
That isn't the definition of what a disorder is.

Quote:
This isn't hard man. Even the meanest intelligence can see the silliness of your comment.

One has to wonder why you keep throwing off these silly comments and bad science and posting studies with 30 students in the deep south, with extremely weak effects as if that proves something about the entire population.

What are you afraid of, Brian? Why do you turn science and reason on its head, and throw out desperate strawmen, if truth is on your side?
You didn't read the scientific articles I posted obviously.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:14 AM   #37
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by boganomics View Post
Mate,



Not really, you just threw out a bunch of numbers and said ARE YOU REALLY CLAIMING THEY'RE ALL HOMOPHOBES? Very little substance. Any claims of it not being a strawman are lol because your post literally contained nothing except rebuttals explicitly against the idea of all homophobes being repressed.
You don't get it. I was mocking his wrong and imprecise claim that homophobes are OFTEN homosexuals themselves, by pointing out a group that was near universally strongly homophobic. Clearly very few Muslims are homosexuals, or interested in it. Muslims hate homosexuals because of cultural and religious bigotries and norms, not because they're closet gays.

Around 1-3% of the population is homosexual depending on study. Maybe double to triple that might lean toward bisexuality at some point in their lives, in a society that doesn't repress it. So Muslims alone prove his assertion false. At best maybe 5% of the "hardcore homophobes" that make up the Muslim population of the world are actually closet gays themselves.

So his assertion is false - and yet you attack me for pointing that out instead. How objective are you being?

I think homosexuality is a disorder because I follow logic, not because I'm right wing (I'm not), because I live in the south (I'm actually a long time global traveler who's seen more of the world than all the homophobe screamers), or because I'm interested in men. If I was gay I'd be fine with it; I'm not religious, I'm open minded about sexuality, I've seen a lot of the world. I have no problem with gay people; if anything I tend feel sorry for them, many of them seem very unhappy people below the surface. I believe in gay rights; I'd have been arguing strongly they shouldn't be classified as a disorder by psychiatrists had I lived in the 1950s (most of the virtue-signalling sheep in this thread who only hold socially approved opinions would have been on the other side of that debate).

Yet you have bigots in this thread screaming "homophobe", "Hitler", and claiming I'm a closet gay. It's pure mob ad-hominem attacking of people who hold opinions that aren't currently fashionable. I'd hope this discussion could rise above that.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 04-29-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:19 AM   #38
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
That isn't the definition of what a disorder is.
Do you want to have an honest discussion, or not? You appear not to want to.

Quote:
You didn't read the scientific articles I posted obviously.
I read the study you posted on penile plethysmography. Did you??

I'm genuinely curious - read the study and tell me how much do you think it moves the needle on the claim that:

Quote:
Hardcore homophobics are often repressed homosexuals themselves.
Let's see how scientific you are. Does this above claim become:

1% more likely to be true
10% more likely to be true
50% more likely to be true
Certain to be true

As a result of this study?
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:27 AM   #39
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
Do you want to have an honest discussion, or not? You appear not to want to.
I'm interested in having an honest discussion in the same way I'm interested in having an honest discussion with a flat-earther...

Quote:
I read the study you posted on penile plethysmography. Did you??

I'm genuinely curious - read the study and tell me how much do you think it moves the needle on the claim that:

Let's see how scientific you are. Does this above claim become:

1% more likely to be true
10% more likely to be true
50% more likely to be true
Certain to be true

As a result of this study?
It isn't the only study, but it points in the same direction as other studies. Generally, when all the data points in one direction...
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:36 AM   #40
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
I'm interested in having an honest discussion in the same way I'm interested in having an honest discussion with a flat-earther...
You think it's a 100% settled that homosexuality isn't a kind of disorder?

Wow @ your closed mind. Wow at the lack of philosophical depth. I guess as a former psychologist you've taken on the positions of your cult. It's the nature of psychologists and psychiatrists. Your mindset is the same mindset by which psychiatrists justified locking up, forcibly treating and chemically castrating gays (anyone who denied the learned opinion of the experts that this was the correct thing to do was a flat earther). I guess you don't look at history and learn.

Anyway, since you openly admit that your mind is completely closed, and you're just here to troll, I shall respond in kind.

Quote:
It isn't the only study, but it points in the same direction as other studies. Generally, when all the data points in one direction...
Alright, so you refuse to answer the question. The correct answer is < 1%, by the way.

And it's strange that you didn't post all these studies....is there a meta study of penile plethysmography on homophobes? At present I see nothing but a single worthless study of 30 university students in the south, with extremely weak results. Why would you post an extremely weak study and not post this meta study if it existed? I don't understand. Did I miss a post of yours, or something?
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:42 AM   #41
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Re: Sex GTO

Is there some kind of phrase for the idea that the people who most often and most vehemently praise themselves for being logical and objective are often the ones making logical errors and leaps?

Like the people who 'hate drama'
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:47 AM   #42
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Re: Sex GTO

Well I can answer my own question from above, it seems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
I'm interested in having an honest discussion in the same way I'm interested in having an honest discussion with a flat-earther...

It isn't the only study, but it points in the same direction as other studies. Generally, when all the data points in one direction...
From a pro-gay 2012 slate article:
Quote:
But even these penis-based findings won't tell us very much about human nature. The results haven't been formally replicated by another lab since they were published, and as the Georgia team concedes in its original paper, there's a long history of research demonstrating that anxiety itself can produce sexual arousal.
So you're flat out lying now in the furtherance of your bigotry...pretty incredible. If this hasn't been replicated - and I'm sure others have tried - it's extremely likely to be false.

The last line in fact shows why there were the results there were. The arousal differential in the final graph in the study you posted is tiny (as is the arousal itself). Even if it's real and not selection biased or an artifact, anxiety or taboo explains it completely.

But you're so closed minded (as you openly admit above) this never occurred to you. Amazing.

Anyway. Even extremely weak implicit association studies on homophobia put the lie to the claim that hardcore homophobes are often homosexual. The best these (selection-biased, non-replicated, small sample size, agenda ridden) studies can up with is one in 5.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:49 AM   #43
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Re: Sex GTO

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Originally Posted by boganomics View Post
Is there some kind of phrase for the idea that the people who most often and most vehemently praise themselves for being logical and objective are often the ones making logical errors and leaps?

Like the people who 'hate drama'
Afraid to engage on content...or make an argument. Par for the course.

If you were actually willing to debate the meat - that homosexuality fits the pattern of other things we call disorders - you would see that I have a fairly strong argument. But that would uncomfortable for you.

Arguing with people who are dissonancephobic is like arguing with religious people about their core religious tenets. Open mindedness is rare to nonexistent. you have Brian openly admitting that above.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:58 AM   #44
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Re: Sex GTO

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You think it's a 100% settled that homosexuality isn't a kind of disorder?

Wow @ your closed mind. Wow at the lack of philosophical depth. I guess as a former psychologist you've taken on the positions of your cult. It's the nature of psychologists and psychiatrists. Your mindset is the same mindset by which psychiatrists justified locking up, forcibly treating and chemically castrating gays (anyone who denied the learned opinion of the experts that this was the correct thing to do was a flat earther). I guess you don't look at history and learn.

Anyway, since you openly admit that your mind is completely closed, and you're just here to troll, I shall respond in kind.
What is judged to be a disorder is a social construct, not a scientific one. Homosexuality was a disorder. It was medicalization of behavior that was frowned upon. Now that it isn't frowned upon by the establishment, it isn't a disorder anymore.

Quote:
Alright, so you refuse to answer the question. The correct answer is < 1%, by the way.

And it's strange that you didn't post all these studies....is there a meta study of penile plethysmography on homophobes? At present I see nothing but a single worthless study of 30 university students in the south, with extremely weak results. Why would you post an extremely weak study and not post this meta study if it existed? I don't understand. Did I miss a post of yours, or something?
It isn't 1%. I posted the study that is easiest to understand - clearly getting a chubby when looking at homoerotic materials is an indication that you are a bit gay. The effect sizes were huge, which is why only a small sample is needed to show the effect.

Other studies linking homophobia with the belief that homosexuality is a choice point the same direction. It is very obvious that the only people who think it is a choice must have had to make a choice. The rest of us (gays and straights who didn't have to choose), find it extremely surprising that some people had to decide what they found attractive.
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Old 04-29-2017, 12:32 PM   #45
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Re: Sex GTO

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Nice post!

It's a lot more than double. 4% of the population attempts suicide; it's 20% of gays and 40% of transsexuals. Interestingly, operations don't change the suicide rate. Nor does a positive environment, much:



If you call this comorbidity, the appropriate medical term, you're accused of being a homophone, but I don't know what other medical/scientific term is appropriate.
They're not committing suicide because they're gay. They're committing suicide bc of the way they're treated.

And there's no such thing as a positive climate for gays in this world. There may be pockets to hide in, but the reality is always waiting outside that pocket. So your data is moot.
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Old 04-29-2017, 12:50 PM   #46
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Re: Sex GTO

I think Pokerlogist might have been joking.
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Old 04-29-2017, 01:54 PM   #47
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Re: Sex GTO

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They're not committing suicide because they're gay. They're committing suicide bc of the way they're treated.
This is not in evidence. I mean, the very thing you quoted provides contradictory evidence.

There is also the fact that homophobia has hugely decreased in the west - we've gone from maybe 80% of the population openly shunning gays to people openly shunning people who don't like gays - yet the suicide rate remains astonishingly outsized.

You're a smart guy. It's pretty obvious that at least some of this isn't the shunning or negative experience aspect. The discrepancy is too enormous and societal attitudes have changed a huge amount while the suicide rate has stayed high.
Quote:
And there's no such thing as a positive climate for gays in this world. There may be pockets to hide in, but the reality is always waiting outside that pocket. So your data is moot.
It'd be interesting if there was data on gay suicide attempts in ultra liberal places like San Fran, vs elsewhere with similar socioeconomics. I might try and dig that up - should help settle whether the idea you're proposing is true.

I don't agree that gays have a rough time today in much of the west. Especially among the young. Homophobia will get you shunned among most 20 somethings; being gay will get you friends.
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Old 04-29-2017, 02:07 PM   #48
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Re: Sex GTO

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This is not in evidence. I mean, the very thing you quoted provides contradictory evidence.

There is also the fact that homophobia has hugely decreased in the west - we've gone from maybe 80% of the population openly shunning gays to people openly shunning people who don't like gays - yet the suicide rate remains astonishingly outsized.

You're a smart guy. It's pretty obvious that at least some of this isn't the shunning or negative experience aspect. The discrepancy is too enormous and societal attitudes have changed a huge amount while the suicide rate has stayed high.

It'd be interesting if there was data on gay suicide attempts in ultra liberal places like San Fran, vs elsewhere with similar socioeconomics. I might try and dig that up - should help settle whether the idea you're proposing is true.

I don't agree that gays have a rough time today in much of the west. Especially among the young. Homophobia will get you shunned among most 20 somethings; being gay will get you friends.
I would love to hear the mechanism that you think makes enjoying cock cause suicide.
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Old 04-29-2017, 02:16 PM   #49
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Re: Sex GTO

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I would love to hear the mechanism that you think makes enjoying cock cause suicide.
Brains that lack whatever it is that maintains normal boundaries break down in other ways as well. That's the nature and cause of many comorbidities.

In other words, it mightn't be that gay people are defective so much as that defective people are more often gay. Which is extremely relevant in terms of social policy and what we teach children and how we normalized homosexuality, given the mental and physical harm that a homosexual lifestyle causes.

Anyway, there's fairly strong evidence for this thesis. For example, one study of borderline personality disorder shows a truly astonishing number of bisexual/homosexual men:

Quote:
She found that male but not female borderlines were significantly more likely to have a homosexual orientation than nonborderline inpatient comparison subjects. She reported rates of homosexual/bisexual orientation of 48% among male borderlines.
Homosexuality and especially bisexuality has a huge number of comordibities. That's fairly good evidence that it is indeed a disorder.

To answer your question further, things that can cause suicide in gays and make promoting homosexuality undesirable

- Given the primacy of sex in evolution, men probably have multiple innate instincts that tell us that we should be ****ing women. In homosexuality, some of these instincts are obviously missing, overridden, ignored, etc, while others might still be intact. ****ing men innately goes against these instincts and makes one feel weird and emotionally off balance.
- The homosexual lifestyle is highly promiscuous. The data is clear on that. There's far less exclusivity and hence love and bonding in homosexual relationships, which has deleterious mental effects.
- The lack of a possibility of shared child creation in homosexual relationships reduces meaning and relationship depth; creating children is such a strong instinct and centering life focus fo heterosexuals.
- Lots of other things I probably haven't thought of.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 04-29-2017 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 04-29-2017, 02:50 PM   #50
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Re: Sex GTO

As an example of what I'm talking about, have a look at this:



Homosexual men have around 6x the lifetime partners as heterosexual men. There is other data that shows the level of exclusivity in homosexual relationships to be less than 5% (I can't find it right now, but if you have any gay friends, you'd know this to be true).

So we have:

- High suicide rates
- Extremely high levels of promiscuity
- Comorbidity with various other mental disorders
- Much lower levels of mental and physical health among gay people.

And yet you claim this is a healthy and normal life, no different to heterosexuality, and that gay brains are as functional and normal as straight brains. Seems like a religious belief rather than something grounded in science.
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