Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Race, Evolution, and Behavior

01-05-2011 , 03:06 AM


From The Great Gatsby
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 03:27 AM
OP is a known troll in the RGT forum who's now taken his act here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...remacy-950169/
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginglory
He actually came to the interesting conclusion that the native tribesmen of New Guinea were the most mentally adroit sub-group on the planet. His claim was they became that way as an evolutionary response to their need to survive in an extremely challenging environment since New Guinea has few mammals as a source of protein or as beasts of burden and few indigenous plants capable of being cultivated.
And to make things even tougher the nearest 7-Elevens are probably miles away.


PairTheBoard
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
OP is a known troll in the RGT forum who's now taken his act here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...remacy-950169/
I hadn't noticed this wasn't RGT until you said...
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 08:58 AM
There is only one race, the human race.
We all are inheritors of the legacy left by Confucius, Socrates and Newton.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 09:41 AM
Well you know how they say "Men over 50 should get their prostate checked, and black men over 40"

There is obviously some genetic inferiority between certain races when it comes to health problems.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 11:07 AM
I've seen a research on TV about occidentals and orientals seeing the world different, were occidentals were in general individualizing the orientals would look the whole picture as one. If anyone has more into it I would be thankful.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 11:11 AM
Whether there are genetically significant differences between 'races' and whether these differences are ethically significant are TWO VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES. Please don't mistake the former for the latter: it's a fallacy.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 11:21 AM
The differences between ethnic groups are like the differences between families.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistergrinch
I'm reading a fascinating book with this title, which lays out the scientific evidence for racial differences and discusses their consequences for human politics and culture. It seems that a growing number of scholars are saying "the emperor has no clothes" to the current PC consensus on race, which is not based on anything other than pure politics and wishful thinking. I just wanted to put this out there because I think this issue is so important for the future of human civilization. Note that the book generally gives Asians the highest marks on most scales, blacks the lowest, with whites falling somewhere in between. This is a shocking book that presents information that desperately needs to be more widely discussed. It seems to confirm what most of us already suspect intuitively but have been browbeaten into rejecting by our modern thought police.
In addition to all the other errors people have pointed put (which are quite numerous) the concept of race you are using to say asian>white>black is not based on genetics. A white person and a black person can be much closer to the same race than 2 black people.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Raker
In addition to all the other errors people have pointed put (which are quite numerous) the concept of height you are using to say men>women is not based on genetics. A man and a woman can be much closer to the same height than 2 women.
.

Edit: see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin's_Fallacy
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckbomb
No, I am saying that if races exist genetically, lumping black people as a genetically defined race is surely wrong. Your FYP made no sense what so ever. It is not in a statistical sense of sharing similar genes, it is in the sense that Australian aborigines are more of separate race from sub Saharan blacks than Indians are from the Irish. But in terms of how people use the word race, the opposite is true. This is just based on genetic isolation and the fact that darkening and lightening of skin is something that happened independently in many places.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Raker
No, I am saying that if races exist genetically, lumping black people as a genetically defined race is surely wrong. Your FYP made no sense what so ever. It is not in a statistical sense of sharing similar genes, it is in the sense that Australian aborigines are more of separate race from sub Saharan blacks than Indians are from the Irish. But in terms of how people use the word race, the opposite is true. This is just based on genetic isolation and the fact that darkening and lightening of skin is something that happened independently in many places.
I agree with your larger point that "races" are essentially large extended families that evolved in isolation, which is more complex than surface discussions about white, black, etc. Perhaps I misunderstood the point of your first post, but my FYP was responding to the common argument that there is more genetic variation within races than among races, ergo race is a useless construct. My admittedly crude example attempted to show that the same holds true for the sexes and height.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckbomb
I agree with your larger point that "races" are essentially large extended families that evolved in isolation, which is more complex than surface discussions about white, black, etc. Perhaps I misunderstood the point of your first post, but my FYP was responding to the common argument that there is more genetic variation within races than among races, ergo race is a useless construct. My admittedly crude example attempted to show that the same holds true for the sexes and height.
Ok, I see what you were trying to say now. I wasn't using the bolded expression, which is definitely fallacious. I was just saying that if race has a genetic basis, a distinction of "black" is non sensical because 2 people with very similar skin colors will have to be in completely different races, an Australian aborigine and any black person from Africa could not be in the same race for example, unless you say that everybody is in the same race.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-05-2011 , 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iNeedScissors61
Well you know how they say "Men over 50 should get their prostate checked, and black men over 40"

There is obviously some genetic inferiority between certain races when it comes to health problems.
Differences are not equivalent to "inferiorities." For instance, being a carrier of the sickle cell gene protects against malaria.

As far as the specifics of prostate cancer goes, men are clearly genetically inferior than women by your argument.

More damning to your argument (specifically relating to prostate cancer) is that there are likely causes (diet, obesity, infection) that have nothing to do with genetics, but everything to do with a person's station in life.

The most damning fact is called, if I recall correctly, "skin cancer." We caucasian people are clearly genetically inferior. On the other hand, we are the most reflective of all the races, which theoretically makes us less likely to be run over when walking on streets at dusk/night.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-06-2011 , 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick

The most damning fact is called, if I recall correctly, "skin cancer." We caucasian people are clearly genetically inferior. On the other hand, we are the most reflective of all the races, which theoretically makes us less likely to be run over when walking on streets at dusk/night.
White hoodies FTW.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-06-2011 , 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LXThrottle
I've seen a research on TV about occidentals and orientals seeing the world different, were occidentals were in general individualizing the orientals would look the whole picture as one. If anyone has more into it I would be thankful.
It's simply a mentality that is instilled in us by our crazy mothers.

In all seriousness I think it's just the social pressure of what one does is a reflection of our families. So if a child is a nut, we tend to blame the parents for not raising the child "correctly". So how a kid turns out is a direct reflection on the family.

Also, there is very little of an individualistic mentality in our culture. What happens to one happens to all. This is by no means something that is unique to Asians, it's just very prevalent. Like someone else said, it's almost like the difference between families. Some families have value certain things much more so than others.

There are issues that go along with each of these "values", though. I've noticed Asians tend to have serious problems communicating emotional issues (my father never showed emotion, especially in public. ever.) and a supressions of things like creativity. Asians are "known" to be uncreative. We get good at things by doing it over and over and over again until we excel at it.

There are theories that this is the reason America has done so well economically - we invent things, we come up with new ideas, and we sell them. Japan typically takes someone else's idea and just makes it better and better through discipline and hardwork. They don't tend to invent stuff.

Trust me, it's not exactly fun. There were times when I was a kid that I was miserable.

Sorry about all the quotes, but really all these things I'm saying are broad generalizations, so I'm using quotes to express that I know these examples are all stereotypes.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-06-2011 , 01:46 PM
i think there certainly are significant differences in personality characteristics between race groups, however
- The difference between outliers within the same race is certainly higher
- Environmental differences (culture, weather etc.) are a more determining factor in behaviour than race
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-08-2011 , 10:42 AM
Nothing new here. We've known about this since at least The Bell Curve. But I agree it is something important to be discussing, especially with all the grandiose politicians trying to make things "even".

Racism is stupid because individual factors tell you much more than race, but when dealing with large groups, if you don't expect race to make a difference, you're engaging in wishful thinking at best.

Different groups of people evolved in different environments and show strong tendencies to physical differences in every feature of their bodies. Yet somehow, public opinion is that human brains are shielded from evolutionary forces.

To the contrary, if we are going to expand our understanding of human brains, we need to look at how they evolved and how they responded differently to different environments. You need a different type of brain to excel at hunting zebras in Africa than to fish in Asia than to gather nuts in europe or fruit in the tropics, etc etc.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-08-2011 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil318466
Behavior is learned, not passed on through genetics.
Evidence that there are very significant genetic predispositions for behavioral characteristics has been piling on for the last 40 years.

Making such a bombastic statement as you are doing in the quoted text, and then later making it clear that your foundation for doing so is extrapolating from anecdotes from your own/your gf's family, is ridiculously arrogant.

Quote:
My point is if you had a bunch of African Americans and brought them up in this same culture, I'm sure you would see the same results.
How come you are so sure of this? And exactly why are you so sure?
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-08-2011 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bepro
Nothing new here. We've known about this since at least The Bell Curve. But I agree it is something important to be discussing, especially with all the grandiose politicians trying to make things "even".

Racism is stupid because individual factors tell you much more than race, but when dealing with large groups, if you don't expect race to make a difference, you're engaging in wishful thinking at best.

Different groups of people evolved in different environments and show strong tendencies to physical differences in every feature of their bodies. Yet somehow, public opinion is that human brains are shielded from evolutionary forces.

To the contrary, if we are going to expand our understanding of human brains, we need to look at how they evolved and how they responded differently to different environments. You need a different type of brain to excel at hunting zebras in Africa than to fish in Asia than to gather nuts in europe or fruit in the tropics, etc etc.
There are no "strong" physical differences that I am aware of. The differences are small, just we notice them (and most of the important ones are probably due more to environment/culture than genetics).

Look at zebras. We can't tell them apart, but I bet they can distinguish between Bob McZebra and Harry Van Zebra pretty easily.

Also, the strength that humans have is that we don't have to adapt to our environments to the extent that the other animals do. For instance, in cold environments, we can work out: "that furry animal seems to not mind the cold. Perhaps it is because of the fur it has. I will take his fur off and wear it."

Of course, there are things that maybe we couldn't problem solve our way through (being pasty-white and being in Africa would be hard to survive - severe sunburn does not lead one to be a good hunter/gatherer), but I am having trouble seeing how hunting for bear and foraging for nuts and berries in Europe requires qualitative or quantitative differences in problem solving than hunting zebras and foraging for fruits and grains in Africa.

I would expect that since the problems are largely the same (kill animal BEFORE attempting to eat / avoid letting animals eat you / look on ground or in trees for stuff that you find tasty / if Bob "Adventureful Eater" Smith eats a certain berry/nut/tuber then dies, do not also eat that berry/nut/tuber), differences in problem solving would not cause divergence. I am pretty sure that agriculture is way too recent of a way of life to have caused differences in survival rates within populations.

Basically, I find that it seems more probable that cultural/nurture issues explain any important differences between groups.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-08-2011 , 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bepro
Nothing new here. We've known about this since at least The Bell Curve. But I agree it is something important to be discussing, especially with all the grandiose politicians trying to make things "even".

Racism is stupid because individual factors tell you much more than race, but when dealing with large groups, if you don't expect race to make a difference, you're engaging in wishful thinking at best.

Different groups of people evolved in different environments and show strong tendencies to physical differences in every feature of their bodies. Yet somehow, public opinion is that human brains are shielded from evolutionary forces.

To the contrary, if we are going to expand our understanding of human brains, we need to look at how they evolved and how they responded differently to different environments. You need a different type of brain to excel at hunting zebras in Africa than to fish in Asia than to gather nuts in europe or fruit in the tropics, etc etc.
The world of linguistics profoundly disproves this.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-08-2011 , 11:10 PM
damn, good post brianthemick.

i was reading a book called moral minds by a harvard PhD biologist, and he talked about how the potential for morality to develop is innate in the human mind from infancy, and that although many of the algorithms for developing morality are hardwired into the brain of individuals, there is alot of "play" as to the way that they can develop. that is why we see such vast differences in culture, despite us having the same brains (like how muslims find it honorable to kill unfaithful women or the romans enjoyed watching people getting ripped apart in gladiator battles).

so, we could explain any percieved disparity of intelligence in black people, if black culture lacked some sort of social convention that pertained to intelligence.

and given that the history of black oppression in this country has caused black culture to be undereducated, and also that the first and most impactful form of culture that an individual is exposed to is their family, it makes perfect sense why individuals in black culture would appear to be less intelligent.

i mean, einstein would have been caught up doing dumb sh*t if his parents were drug addicts and on welfare, and attended a third-rate school for only like 7 years.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-09-2011 , 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorcher863
damn, good post brianthemick.
I prefer if my kudos were capitalized, but thank you. (Just below the caps lock key or, if you wish, the enter key, you will find a shift key. It makes the letters "big" when you hold it down when typing an individual letter... I am only teasing, since you actually used punctuation, which is enormously more valuable in understanding your post)

Quote:
i was reading a book called moral minds by a harvard PhD biologist, and he talked about how the potential for morality to develop is innate in the human mind from infancy,
His book is a little too preachy (and goes WAY beyond current research findings), but morality/ethics is definitely partly hard-wired. Why do you think we have ethical philosophers? They explain and develop what we are built to believe, but can't explain in words easily.* Heck, even dogs have a sense of morals surrounding fairness and us vs. them.

Quote:
there is alot of "play" as to the way that they can develop.
We usually call that "play" religion. "Upbringing" is probably more universal though.

Quote:
that is why we see such vast differences in culture, despite us having the same brains (like how muslims find it honorable to kill unfaithful women or the romans enjoyed watching people getting ripped apart in gladiator battles).
No need to call out specific cultures and religions. A good raping/pillaging is all good, as long as it is not real people who suffer.

Quote:
so, we could explain any percieved disparity of intelligence in black people, if black culture lacked some sort of social convention that pertained to intelligence.
Your statement can be taken as damning of the economic majority's cuture(me, AKA white people) or of black people's culture. I am able and willing to assign blame where blame lies, but I am unsure what the solution is.**

Either way (and I am sure it is a combination of cultures, not one that is to blame), culture differences cause economic/behavior differences. Genetic differences may play a part, but I am pretty sure these are not actionable, and are certainly small.

Quote:
and given that the history of black oppression in this country has caused black culture to be undereducated, and also that the first and most impactful form of culture that an individual is exposed to is their family, it makes perfect sense why individuals in black culture would appear to be less intelligent.
A simple demonstration of the problem with confusing ethnicity/culture/economics with race, is that people from the Netherlands are really freaking tall. A century ago, they were not as tall as the average American.

Quote:
i mean, einstein would have been caught up doing dumb sh*t if his parents were drug addicts and on welfare, and attended a third-rate school for only like 7 years.
He was a dumb-**** when he was young. Outliers are not important when discussing populations.

*This does not discount their value. If not for ethcal philosophers / religious scholars (it pains me to say) it would still be all about "us vs. them."

**Actually, I am being modest and self-protective. I do have the solution, but it involves me becoming judge, jury and executioner and I don't quite have the votes.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote
01-09-2011 , 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse
The world of linguistics profoundly disproves this.
I feel sad that your post put in few words what I had to use many to express.

Well done.
Race, Evolution, and Behavior Quote

      
m