Shouldn't a rationally self-interested atheist pretend to be religious? Church is a great place to socialize and network. It is unquestionably easier to get along in our society and to influence other people if you pretend to agree with their kooky beliefs about what happened 2000 years ago. And, of course, most people treat out-of-the-closet atheists as either monsters or misguided souls in need of saving, either of which is quite annoying and impractical. I suppose a better strategy might be to hold out and until a particularly useful (i.e., rich, attractive, your boss, a big client, etc.) zealot comes along and let him or her "save" you.

Since athiests don't believe in god, they shouldn't be bothered by thoughts of sacrilege when lying to priests, taking communion as a non-believer, etc. And because there is no god, ultimate objective morality doesn't exist. So why not fake it and have more friends and an easier life?

There's a limit to how much drivel you can sit through wiothout shouting out 'buttocks'.

Funerals obviously, the odd weddings and christening maybe, but there are limits to how far you can push sane human beings.

colin

I'll probably never let my grandmother know that I'm atheist, but for the most part, I see very little reason to lie. Actually, if my grandmother asked me straight out, I would tell her the truth.

I'm lucky enough to have a life filled with intelligent people/friends, many of which are atheist, and those that aren't are at the very least understanding.

I doubt I could ever become extremely close to someone that wasn't at the very least agnostic and/or anti-organized religion.

Most people feel good when they are honest. And most people feel better when they spend their time with people that think like they do. Also atheists feel that they are smarter than religious people, and people like to show off that they are smart.

If you're open about your beliefs you'll attract more like-minded people who may make for better company.

I don't run around screaming that I am an atheist. But I have been to church and it was very difficult for me to look evangelicals in the eye and feel anything other than sorry for them...

Exactly. And still I hate the feeling of hypocrisy being at these events, and it doesn't help that half the time you get to hear some donk speak about how he feels sorry for non-believers.

Nobody bothers me about being an athiest, and I don't have any real need to network and socialize within the church. I have enough friends and contacts, and because I don't pretend to be christian they are self-selected to not have a problem with it.

Maybe if I got into politics I would be born again so anything they dig up in my past can be washed away as pre-jesus me.

Brilliant. I wish I would have thought of that when... you know. Is it too late?

It's never too late. You were LOST and now YOU ARE FOUND! Halleluiah brother!!

Nearly all my friends think that the religious types are mental, especially the American religious right. Then again, I do live in live England where the church is nowhere near as influential. For example, I'm pretty sure that if any Prime Minister claimed God had told him/her to choose a certain policy he/she'd be laughed out of office. (Unfortunately, the likes of Blair just make up crap lies instead)

A friend of mine who is a lawyer and has political aspirations goes to church every Sunday for the reasons that you suggested. He doesn't believe in god, but goes to church in order to appear to be religious to the community at large and to network with those who might help his professional and political careers.

As for myself, I don't need church in order to make friends and socialize. I have plenty of other avenues available to me to meet people. I also like to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

What a coincidence.

Are you putting this forward as a fact? Maybe part of the atheist's socializing is talking about how stupid they think theism is.


Maybe they would be bothered because lying is not something they would want people to do to them and it makes them uncomfortable.


lol.


Because they would be friendships that were forged under false pretenses and not satisfying in the way that real friendships are.

Church socializing is the most boring and fabricated kind of socializing. Everyone has a completely different personality at church where they act as though stupid jokes are hilarious. Everyone at church is nice and honest and good hearted at church, which is often completely different than how they lead the rest of their lives.

Church socializing makes me want to puke it's so fake.

i have to disagree here.
1: "Church is a great place to socialize and network" of the devoutly religious folks I've met, a distressing number of them have been either obtuse, unpleasant, uneducated, stupid, or old. serious churchgoers suck, as a rule. they are not fun to hang or converse with, and they are generally prudish and close minded. The church members who do happen to be cool tend not to be very devout, and you can socialize with them in other settings.
2: I think that Americans are way less religious than you are claiming. I have no problem meeting non-religious friends.
3: I dont believe in God, but I'm still bothered when I or anyone lies about serious matters. Frankly, I find the suggestion that I need to believe in God to care about lying to be insulting.
4: there is an objective morality, and that is rooted in human solidarity.

This is a fair point. I wasn't really thinking of making true friends at church, for the most part. I was mainly thinking about business generation and meeting other influential people. Most leaders (whether political or in corporate america) attend church at least semi-regularly.

How many of them are in influential positions in corporations or government? In my experience, there are not many open non-believers in influential positions. But, I live in the South. I also suspect that a great many of the leaders in our country are actually fakers ala my OP.

I didn't mean to insult you. But, if you don't believe in god, why not lie when it serves your purpose? I qualified my post by noting that I was talking to "rationally self-interested atheists." From my perspective, a rational person lies about important things almost never. But the reason is because credibility and reputation are incredibly important for achieving success in most endeavors that require cooperation.

Not without god. You can't justify "human solidarity" (or anything else for that matter) as an end worth achieving without god. Sklansky has hammered this point home to death on this board, so I won't fill in all the details.

Yes.

lol, all you want. It doesn't make it less true. It is impossible to construct an objective moral philosophy without at least one foundational moral premise. If you don't have god to supply that premise, anything else is a personal preference. Your personal preferences are probably dictated by a combination of biology and socialization.


That is a good point. I was thinking more of making connections useful for business and power.

As has been gone over several times on this forum, absolute morality is not possible with or without a god.

luckyme

So the only reason you don't lie is because you don't want to displease the invisible magic being that you imagine?

There are other reasons not to lie as well, but these are legitimate. Are they not sufficient?


Religious ethics ultimately render objective morality impossible, due to an irrational and incoherent metaphysics. It's a similar reason as to why religion tends to contaminate an objective physics and biology.

I'm not sure that you have accurately characterized Mr. Sklanky's position, but if so, he's wrong.

Wouldn't this be a byproduct of people in general attending church "semi-regularly"? (whatever that means)


These statements are so vague as to almost not have any meaning at all.


Because lying is a bad life strategy. The way you discuss lying makes it sound like a perfect tactic that we would never get caught using. It would be difficult to pull this off without becoming a sociopath of some sort. (Which is unhealthy along with being a bad life strategy.)


I see what you are getting at, and I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion that power-players fake religion to further their own purposes. However, you are using an awful lot of faulty reasoning to get there.

I don't know. Let's see your argument.
No it isn't, since you're socializing and networking with people who go to church.

Why does it have to be objective?
You mean a set of morals that has been created from evolution as a means to help further the species? You bet.

I guess I don’t really get this. I like being happy, and the thing that makes me the most happy seems to be helping other people, and helping mankind in general. Obviously this is my personal, subjective perception - but as others have pointed out, I'm not sure how far you'll get trying to establish THE ULTIMATE OBJECTIVE MORALITY! Anyways, I don’t see the need for God – I can still justify achieving my goals without this God dude.



I see your point, but it all depends on the individuals’ personal preference. It seems that pretending to be religious would provide a certain pragmatic, immediate comfort and happiness – but even the happiness would ultimately be superficial. I think in the long-run, most rationally self-interested persons would ultimately be more fulfilled staying true to themselves. The major exception I see would be to achieve political or business-oriented goals; and most of these goals can still be achieved by open-atheists.

FYP

As much as Christians like to believe that you have to have religion to have morals, you don't. There are plenty of atheists who do pretend to be Christians. They don't exactly admit it though! The atheists you see are just the honest ones.