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Old 02-18-2017, 04:52 PM   #176
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
You were the one making the strong claim that "Most people who voted for him subscribe to precisely the worldview you just espoused" in response to someone who said "At least I admit I'm not perfect, not even nearly so. Socrates saying he knew nothing is something to think about. Especially for some of the Trump supporters."

I am simply disputing the extremely bizarre claim that you made.

It not only isn't true in the real world, it isn't even true based on using some argument that completely ignores that the real world exists.
You're still being silly Brian...wtf is going on with you lately? Here is plaaynade's blatant bigotry, put forth with zero evidence:
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At least I admit I'm not perfect, not even nearly so. Socrates saying he knew nothing is something to think about. Especially for some of the Trump supporters.
I counter this with a different view, pointing out that the holier-than-thou, no-doubt-we're-right stuff is coming mostly from the left in the US.

You come back with something like "Trump voters are broom pushing farmers, who don't have nuanced views"

I reply with hard data that shows your assertion to be false - Trump voters are both wealthier, and (among the white voters) better educated, and more fluid in their electoral choice = more on the fence = likely more doubt about their views.

You come back with weirdness/irrationality.

Please come back, Brian. I don't know where you've gone.
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:06 PM   #177
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

It is odd that you felt the need to say this then: "Most people who voted for him subscribe to precisely the worldview you just espoused." Why would you make such a claim if it had nothing to do with what you are now saying?

Oh, and the strongest predictor of whether a person voted for Trump was whether they are a resident of a rural or small-town county.
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Old 02-18-2017, 05:15 PM   #178
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

I doubt you doubt as much as I doubt. I could be wrong but that doubtlessly means I'm probably right.

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Old 02-18-2017, 06:43 PM   #179
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

The Zombies won.

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Old 02-18-2017, 08:26 PM   #180
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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At least I admit I'm not perfect, not even nearly so. Socrates saying he knew nothing is something to think about. Especially for some of the Trump supporters.
Thought this was a good joke, but apparently not.

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The battle was between Trump and people who are so certain they are morally, intellectually and practically correct, they ram it down your thought with zero humor or self awareness or even the barest hint that they understand the broadness of philosophy or the wisdom of the unconventional. Trump won that battle.
For remaining in the classic era: Pyrrhic victory. One more such "win", and the American people is lost.

I'm learning the Trump way of communicating.

First casualty is truth.
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Old 02-19-2017, 02:14 AM   #181
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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At least I admit I'm not perfect, not even nearly so. Socrates saying he knew nothing is something to think about. Especially for some of the Trump supporters.
Thought this was a good joke, but apparently not.
At least I admit I'm not perfect, not even nearly so. Socrates saying he knew nothing is something to think about. Especially for some of the Clinton supporters.

Funny joke? Not really. Even though it's probably more true. Just transparent partisan bigotry. You think it's so funny because you're so completely convinced it's true, that there's no self awareness.

Let's be clear. You are 100% convinced that Trump is a disaster and that the people who voted for him are foolish. Who is sure of what they know?
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For remaining in the classic era: Pyrrhic victory. One more such "win", and the American people is lost.
Lost how? What's with all the catastrophizing? The American republic survived civil wars, scandals, the cold war, two world wars, slavery, segregation, the forced treatment of homosexuals, the rise of Nazism (on a grand scale - vast rallies were held all over the country), the rise of communism and its subversive efforts, constitution crises, nuclear crises, large scale environmental disasters, terrible presidents, and much more. You think it's going to be "lost" because a bombastic businessman - who is more restrained and far more rational than many early presidents (the focus-grouped, always-on-message lies of the Clinton types are a recent phenomena), is going to do what, exactly?

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I'm learning the Trump way of communicating.

First casualty is truth.
You think truth is on your side? Why? Is truth on the side of the people who are trying to force society to bend reality to accommodate the 0.3% of people with a severe and debilitating dysmorphic disorder where they feel like they're the opposite sex and want to pretend they are? On the side of people who claim that a religion in which 1/3 of adherents believe in murdering you for merely leaving it is a religion of peace and love? Who claim that catastrophic global warming projections have a 97% agreement among scientists? Who claim wind power is a viable solution to meaningfully lowering CO2? Who laud Obama for climate agreements which have the practical effect - note that term, practical effect - of sending CO2 up as fast as possible?

The evidence is not on your side there.

This holier-than-thou nonsense is really getting old. You don't have a monopoly on truth. Much of the left is explicitly and shamelessly anti-truth in the furthering of their important causes. Indeed, if your side was more reasonable and more correct and stuck to the facts rather than reality distortion and partisan bigotry, Trump would not be president.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 02-19-2017 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 03:46 AM   #182
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

The slow thinkers have won, this time.

They just can't cope with how things are and will be. They should have understood that voting for Trump was a tempting, but incorrect method.

There may be something wrong with your presidential institution. Go parliamentarism, so you don't have to vote on something much worse when somebody annoys you.

This was a typical example of when emotions lead you astray.

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Old 02-19-2017, 03:50 AM   #183
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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The slow thinkers have won, this time.
Physician, heal thyself. You are so certain you are right that you ignore your own wisdom:
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Originally Posted by plaaynde View Post
At least I admit I'm not perfect, not even nearly so. Socrates saying he knew nothing is something to think about. Especially for some of the Trump supporters.
Quote:
They just can't cope with how things are and will be. They should have understood that voting for Trump was a tempting, but incorrect method.
How will things be? Do you have a crystal ball? Interested in what you think things will be that are inevitable.

And what was the correct method, given that you think things "will be" no matter what, as you're implying? You seem to be implying that resistance to your view of how the world "will be" and should be is futile, and that your preferred way is also the best way to go. That seems awfully arrogant, and awfully sure of yourself, imo. And awfully ignorant of history. Views has swung wildly back and forth for millenia, sometimes in less than a generation, on everything from female rights to how a state should be organized to acceptance of homosexuality to what should be done about the poor. You think we're in the end game now?

I at least put ideas out there to be ridiculed, debated, ignored, agreed with, modified. You speak in cryptic platitudes, as if you're the wise one who knows all. Who is more humble, of you and me?
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Old 02-19-2017, 03:57 AM   #184
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

I hope intolerance will not prevail. And I can't see how it could. Guys like Trump are squeaks in the big wheels.

I personally think you don't believe in what you are saying yourself. Trying to fictionally develop one side.

You must hope I'm right yourself. It's not rocket science. Let's work for a better world, not a worse one.

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Old 02-19-2017, 04:05 AM   #185
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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I hope intolerance will not prevail. And I can't see how it could.
Again, this is cryptic and meaningless. What, to you, is intolerance? How has intolerance increased under Trump?

The US had extremely racist and nationalist border policies under Obama. Not a peep out of the people screaming now. If you weren't born in the US, you're not allowed to live there except for a very small number of people let in via lottery or small scale immigration. This is the current order.

Yet the left's thinking goes like this: if you make an exception for Mexicans - one country out of 150+, you're somehow not racist and intolerant, but if you apply to law to Mexicans as well as 150+ other countries (i.e. following the existing bipartisan law), you're a horrible racist bigot.

It's bizarre. Completely, utterly bizarre. This is the problem with positions going unchallenged for too long. The "inclusive" people ignore the exclusion of 1 billion Africans and 1 billion Indians, but get butthurt when a few million law-breaking Mexicans are sent back in accordance with the law that the majority of Americans under Obama supported. It's freaking weird, man.

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I personally think you don't believe in what you are saying yourself.
How are you ascertaining this?
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You must hope I'm right yourself. It's not rocket science. Let's work for a better world, not a worse one.
What, to you, is a better or a worse world? The current world we live in - which is an incredible one compared to the various possibilities - is wonderful, full of richness and diversity. It got that diversity by people excluding, having borders, hoarding resources for themselves, etc. Would the world be better if we all had a uniform brown skin and brown eyes with one religion and an orthodoxy of "truth"?

I love diversity, I think it's amazing, and diversity (of thought, of skin color, of culture) arose from exclusion, not inclusion.

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Old 02-19-2017, 04:09 AM   #186
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Again, this is cryptic and meaningless. What, to you, is intolerance? How has intolerance increased under Trump?

The US had extremely racist and nationalist border policies under Obama. Not a peep out of the people screaming now. If you weren't born in the US, you're not allowed to live there except for a very small number of people let in via lottery or small scale immigration. This is the current order.

Yet the left's thinking goes like this: if you make an exception for Mexicans - one country out of 150+, you're somehow not racist and intolerant, but if you apply to law to Mexicans as well as 150+ other countries (i.e. following the existing bipartisan law), you're a horrible racist bigot.

It's bizarre. Completely, utterly bizarre. This is the problem with positions going unchallenged for too long. The "inclusive" people ignorie the exclusion of a 1 billion Africans and 1 billion Indians, but get butthurt when a few million law-breaking Mexicans are sent back in accordance with the law that the majority of Americans under Obama supported. It's freaking weird, man.


How are you ascertaining this?
Ultimately the world will be blended. But it's not possible to do it fast. It's about that the direction has switched now temporarily, annoyingly. Revolutionaries!

Remember Lysenko? That was agriculture. Now you are playing with the climate. Hoping for not as many victims.


Revolutionaries at work.


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Old 02-19-2017, 04:20 AM   #187
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Ultimately the world will be blended.
You know this, how? The world didn't blend in the last 2000 years.

Quote:
But it's not possible to do it fast. It's about that the direction has switched now temporarily, annoyingly. Revolutionaries!
So you want to kill diversity. That's sickening and dystopian. I love diversity (of thought, of skin color, of culture, of language, of philosophy, or many things), and it only exists with exclusion.
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Remember Lysenko? That was agriculture. Now you are playing with the climate. Hoping for not as many victims.
Again, Obama is causing this. Not Trump. Yet not a peep from the people now screaming in the streets. The same people were in fact cheering when he signed policies and agreements that vastly increased the rate of CO2 emissions from China.

Be all for climate change mitigation. Be all for cutting CO2 emissions (I am!). But be for it actually happening. Words are meaningless. Follow your desires to their logical conclusion - which leads to the damning of Obama (whose policies caused a massive increase in CO2 emissions for no good reason whatsoever) and the praising of Trump on climate.

I don't care what position you take on particular issues. Just be rational and consistent and evidence based. Is that too much to ask?
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Old 02-19-2017, 04:34 AM   #188
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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You know this, how? The world didn't blend in the last 2000 years.
It has, and does so with accelerating speed. Fastened communications are the main reason. That's why Trump reminds of Fred Flintstone. Now and then there are backwards phenomena.

You don't see it's blending? That's a key question. We need to sort this out before going forward.

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Old 02-19-2017, 04:44 AM   #189
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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It has, and does so with accelerating speed.
I don't think this is true. I think the rate of blending waxes and wanes, but has stayed behind population growth.
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Fastened communications are the main reason. That's why Trump reminds of Fred Flintstone. Now and then there are backwards phenomena.
So you're hastening for this Glory World Utopia where all the same skin color and eye color and have the same politically correct beliefs? Do you have a deep hatred of diversity, of something?

Personally, I love a world in which there are tall regal Ethiopians, short cute Kalahari bushmen, robust Norwegian blondes, elegant fine boned Japanese, and so on x100. You want us all the same skin color and look as fast as possible, and probably ideology as well, at least as far it comes to the "truths" you prefer. Are you insane?
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You don't see it's blending? That's a key question. We need to sort this out before going forward.
Sure, it's blending. More than in the past? Probably not. I'd guess it's substantially slower per capita than the time of various conquests and empire expansions throughout the last 3000 years. The great European outwards migration was probably the greatest rate of blending in the last 1000 years, today included. Before that, the spread of Islam.
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Old 02-19-2017, 04:48 AM   #190
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

I'm for individuality, not for a mold someone else has put you in. You tend to look at people as fixed groups.

Personally I think the Internet is the greatest force for the blending process. Instant communication over the globe. And the Internet is practically just 20 years old. New grouping of course happens all the time, but all are kind of knowing they can jump in and out on demand, being a global group in total. Tolerance is something natural in that context, you become minority and majority all the time.

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Old 02-19-2017, 05:06 AM   #191
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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I'm for individuality, not for a mold someone else has put you in.
Well then we share a common view. I'm one of the greatest champions for individuality you'll find. Hence my opposition to left-wing politics.

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You tend to look at people as fixed groups.
I do? I note salient characteristics of groups as relates to policy, but then, so do you (see your Trump voter comments above) and so does everyone.
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Personally I think the Internet is the greatest force for the blending process.
I'm curious as to why you're so desperately, even fanatically eager for this "blending" to happen as soon as possible.

I will personally be really sad when a visit to Japan is the same as a visit to Africa, as far as the people are concerned. We will have lost a heritage and a history that stretches back before civilization. Diversity is absolutely amazing and wonderful and enriching and it only exists because of exclusion.
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Instant communication over the globe. And the Internet is practically just 20 years old. New grouping of course happens all the time, but all are kind of knowing they can jump in and out on demand, being a global group in total. Tolerance is something natural in that context, you become minority and majority all the time.
Ok. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Trump though.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:16 AM   #192
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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I'm curious as to why you're so desperately, even fanatically eager for this "blending" to happen as soon as possible.

I will personally be really sad when a visit to Japan is the same as a visit to Africa, as far as the people are concerned. We will have lost a heritage and a history that stretches back before civilization. Diversity is absolutely amazing and wonderful and enriching and it only exists because of exclusion.
It's like the brutal Darwinism that is behind us. It's time to free ourselves and take charge. We can do it better than nature did. We have to, if we want to call ourselves even human. If some stereotypical behavior diminishes, that's a bonus.

One of the main reasons for the blending being beneficial is it diminishes the risk of war, there will simply not be anything to fight for with arms. With nukes available every backwards process is an unnecessary risk. Personal freedom is the "bread and butter" reason for that blending made easy is good.

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Old 02-19-2017, 05:27 AM   #193
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Thanks for your thoughts. I find the ideas of people who think very differently to me fascinating.

I'm going to digest what you've said and try to get my head around it to see if you could be right. To me it reads like unbelievable hubris (not to mention recentism) to think that either Darwinism (in its myriad forms) is behind us or that we can do a better job than nature or that the time has arrived when the realities of physics and competition are behind us. Read some literature and opinion from the 1920s - a similar era of great prosperity and technological advancement and peace, whereby people thought the new brotherhood of man was upon us and all of the old, wars, division, strife, classes, prejudice - would be swept away. Out of that hubris came the Great Depression, WWII, and the horrific and enduring evils of communism, which made Hitler look like a boy scout in terms of life lost and ruined.

So I'm a lot more cautious than you are on taking views like yours. I do not think the future is written and I think the past is an enormous cautionary tale to your kind of thinking and particularly the strong certainty with which you hold it.

But I'll think about it, try to see it from your point of view, steelmanning as much as possible, and get back to you.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:39 AM   #194
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

The good thing with Trump is it may spare us from an even worse guy further down the line. In the end he may be more harmless than a potential future demagogue. People will become careful, like they became after WWII (not to exactly compare, of course...). So your point on the 1920's is very relevant.

The method of killing opponents is hopefully not implemented this time, think that was the main reason for the "success" of Nazism and Communism. Now the critical voices will not be silenced, I hope.

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Old 02-19-2017, 05:46 AM   #195
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

To your later edit:
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One of the main reasons for the blending being beneficial is it diminishes the risk of war, there will simply not be anything to fight for with arms.
Wars are fought by nation-states over resources, or by religions over power/differing worldview. Skin color has little to do with it except for minor regional skirmishes.

And there will always be something to fight for with arms.
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With nukes available every backwards process is an unnecessary risk.
"We should all interbreed so we don't nuke each other" is an interesting idea, but I don't think there's much to it. The Sunni and Shia are genetically identical, and themselves similar to Jews. They're some of the most vicious wars in the world.

Also, how long is this great ****-out going to take? At least 10-20 generations I would say (less in the US which already nearly half minority). A couple of hundred years at least. I'm not sure your method has any bearing on anything. It's certainly far less important than spreading say, Western Enlightenment values, which can happen far faster.

Finally, what effect will this have on exceptionalism, which is what drives societies forward? What if Jews were bred out over the last few centuries such that they became genetically European? Would their unique tail end genius still have driven science and technology and economics, as it has?

Finally, what does genetic mass-sameness mean for plagues and adversity? What does it mean for plagues of the mind, such as Islam or some future version of Scientology? Barriers between cultures and ethnic groups and nations has created much of the wonderful innovation and diversity we've seen, and stopped the global spread and total world enduring domination of horrible ideas (like fundamentalist Islam or Communism or Nazism).

I contend that in the complex ecology that is the human race, you don't have a fraction of a clue about what the unintended effects of your preferred world will be. Whereas we know how the one we have now works - and it works pretty well.
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Personal freedom is the "bread and butter" reason for that blending made easy is good.
Apart from immigration restrictions/national borders (which are necessary to avoid cultural clashes - look at Europe, as well as to keep exceptional economic systems that drive innovation, exceptional), how do people not now have personal freedom and choice?

Last edited by ToothSayer; 02-19-2017 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:51 AM   #196
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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The good thing with Trump is it may spare us from an even worse guy further down the line. In the end he may be more harmless than a potential future demagogue. People will become careful, like they became after WWII (not to exactly compare the events, of course...). So your point on the 1920's is very relevant.
The British were more worried about Churchill's "dangerous, warmongering, bombastic" warnings about Hitler than they were about Hitler. Just like people are 100x more worried about Trump then they are about China. Just be sure you have the correct bogeyman. I don't think you do, frankly. You're comnparing one man, constrained by many things, with an enormous rising geopolitical force backed by an enormous centrally controlled industrial capability (China) - and average views far more racist and nationalist and expansionist and dangerous than Trump, as well as a will and rising ability to carry it out.

Respectfully, I think you are more like the people screaming about Churchill's craziness in the 30s than those warning of Hitler.

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The method of killing opponents is hopefully not implemented this time, think that was the main reason for the "success" of Nazism and Communism. Now the critical voices will not be silenced, I hope.
You really need to take a chill pill on this stuff, imo. Trump is no threat to anyone, let alone a Nazi-like threat. He's a bombast who wants to enforce existing immigration laws and stop a dangerous dictatorship stealing the vast amount of wealth it's stealing from the US in blatant contravention of agreements and norms. These are sane and rational positions, however little you like them. There is zero evidence of anything else. Absolute zero. The media has lost its mind.

Last edited by ToothSayer; 02-19-2017 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:35 AM   #197
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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You really need to take a chill pill on this stuff, imo. Trump is no threat to anyone, let alone a Nazi-like threat. He's a bombast who wants to enforce existing immigration laws and stop a dangerous dictatorship stealing the vast amount of wealth it's stealing from the US in blatant contravention of agreements and norms. These are sane and rational positions, however little you like them. There is zero evidence of anything else. Absolute zero. The media has lost its mind.
I seriously hope you are right. But fear a bit you are not. Him even trying to sweepingly ban individuals just because they are from a certain country shows at least incompetence. A "competent" wrongdoer can be more dangerous though, can give you that.

Problem is he will ridicule America, and can't see how that could be of any benefit. I feel a bit ridiculed too. There can't be one person on this planet who takes Trump seriously. Seriously. Some are in for the fun, but that's a bit different.

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Old 02-19-2017, 12:25 PM   #198
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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The good thing with Trump is it may spare us from an even worse guy further down the line. In the end he may be more harmless than a potential future demagogue.
The good thing about Trump is that he's incompetent. The travel ban was a great example. Signing something without understanding it, having to roll back major parts of it that are almost certainly unconstitutional(banning reentry of permanent residents) and then having to rewrite the whole order altogether. Unless other branches just roll over, its hard to imagine him being competent enough to expand federal power as much as previous presidents.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:11 PM   #199
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Silver linings are plain fun to organize.
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Old 02-19-2017, 08:25 PM   #200
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

So many words. So, so many words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
That far stronger statement is not in evidence imo, but I think it's very very likely to be true that the majority of climatologists would agree with that statement - probably around 60%.

The charge however is that the claim that 97% of scientists agree with this statement is a false claim. That's not even debatable; it is a false claim. If someone like Trolly can't admit that, their rational brains are gone; they're either deeply ignorant or this has become a religion for them.

Do I think they're doing bad science? Not really. The science is the science and says very little so far; the science is ok apart from the normal problems of the low reliability of science in uncertain fields. To get to the public narrative from "the science" requires a huge amount of reaching. The same thing happened in say, the saturated fat consensus. Individually, the large number of highly reliable, high impact studies showing the evils of saturated fat weren't bad science either. They were wrong, however, because of publishing bias, groupthink, excessive extrapolation.

And epidemiology is far more concrete and reliable than climate modeling.

When you write a research grant proposal, what gets funded? One that talks up and investigates dire environmental issues? Or one that doesn't? When you go to model and examine data sets and publish what you find, what are you looking for? Lack of a signal or a signal?

When you want to write a book, or go to conferences or on speaking tours or on TV, who gets invited? The ones pushing the strongest messages, and dire warnings? Or the ones calling for calm, rationality, and calling out the huge uncertainty and unreliability inherent in the predictions?

This is an enormous problem in science, not just climatology, and the more uncertain and data-snooped the field, the worse it gets. I've quoted the example of saturated fat before in detail. Not sure if you read those. Another enormous example: PSA tests for prostate cancer. A vast whole medical industry developed around those, and both the science and the practices of the profession revolved around what brought in the most money/toward intervention. I highly recommend reading this article on PSA to see how both science and professional practice and consensus gets distorted. This is how the world works, man. "Follow the money" is a bigger thing than you think. The money isn't just in what the green lobby screams as evil.

There's no conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory is in believing these are all noble individuals being kept down by big money interests like oil and Koch. In reality, in uncertain fields, groupthink, publishing bias, self interest, and ideological bent (a lot of the people who go into fields like climatology tend to want to "save" the environment), come together to create this kind of nonsense.

In the 1950s, scientists were certain - there was wide consensus - that it was absurd that human CO2 could ever have any effect on the climate. They had multiple extremely strong and very valid reasons for this belief. They were wrong, of course. But why were they wrong? And why were they so certain, despite being wrong? Answer that and you'll start to understand the biases in science and the low reliability of highly uncertain (and especially consensus in highly uncertain fields).

As for me, I'm strongly strongly pro emissions cuts. Not just for the climate risk, but for things like ocean acidification (which is overblown, but not something we should be messing with). It has to work, however. If the policy simply shifts manufacturing to countries with far lower energy efficiency, the policy has the oppposite effect to that intended and is a disaster. This is the current state of affairs, sadly. Legislation and agreements are pushed through that have the opposite effect to that intended, and and celebrated by the green warriors as "doing something". It's sick, frankly, if you actually care about the environment and CO2 emissions.

Bigots like Trolly though don't get as far as thinking through consequences and effectiveness. It's a religion for them. You're either WITH US and our narrative, or you're against us. Brain stem stuff. It's sad. People like that end up actually causing more damage. If there were more climate skeptics like me and fewer climate true believers/bigots like Trolly, I believe we'd have done more by now.
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