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Old 05-24-2017, 01:37 PM   #726
TomCowley
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
So because something doesn't have the claimed intended end result of the system, it's not an example of that system? Utopian philosophy X wasn't really an example of utopian philosophy X because the utopia promised never happened! Stalin wasn't a Marxist, then. Hell, Hitler wasn't a Nazi, because Nazi philosophy included the ultimate inevitable result of the Third Reich for eternity.
If you take the plantation system of the 1840s South, replace the plantation owners with party officials, and declare the government actually owns everything, you have a fairly decent description of the organization of early "communist" China right down to workers being stuck where they are for life. Then it got MORE capitalist and unequal.

At some point, when you make decision after decision that obviously and intentionally lead away from "the claimed intended end result", you can't expect people to believe that you're intending that end result anymore. But take it from a Nobel Laureate instead

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Originally Posted by Ronald Coase
A persisting feature of China’s market transition is the lack of political liberalization. This is not to say that the Chinese political system has stood still over the past 35 years. The Party has distanced itself from radical ideology; it is no longer communist except in name.

The combination of rapid economic liberalization and seemingly unchanged politics has led many to characterize China’s market economy as state-led, authoritarian capitalism
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:41 PM   #727
FoldnDark
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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He is facing charges. I see no "travesty of justice" here. In the UK, people don't have a right to be offensive. Same as here, but we care a lot about boobs being offensive for some reason.


You're just mad because you're a mick and he's a sweaty sock.
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Old 05-24-2017, 01:53 PM   #728
ToothSayer
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Originally Posted by TomCowley View Post
If you take the plantation system of the 1840s South, replace the plantation owners with party officials, and declare the government actually owns everything, you have a fairly decent description of the organization of early "communist" China right down to workers being stuck where they are for life.
No, you don't at all. I missed the bit where slave owners purged millions of "reactionary rightists" and their families,and put them in torture gulags for reeducation and learning communist ideals. I missed the bit where central experts in the 1840s south planned every aspect of crop production for the entire nation. And that's just getting started.

You read too many books in which idiots posit analogies. What you posted is the kind of nonsense that people write when they read too many books in which idiots posit analogies.

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Then it got MORE capitalist and unequal.
No, it got more capitalist and richer from having a partially free market rather than a centrally planned one. The communist ideology and corruption remained unchanged, however.

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At some point, when you make decision after decision that obviously and intentionally lead away from "the claimed intended end result", you can't expect people to believe that you're intending that end result anymore. But take it from a Nobel Laureate instead
So because none of the hard-left communist states distributed the economic output equally, they were all actually right wing capitalists.

This is just gold man. I don't even know what to say. Congrats on trolling me, I guess?
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:37 PM   #729
TomCowley
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
No, you don't at all. I missed the bit where slave owners purged millions of "reactionary rightists" and their families,and put them in torture gulags for reeducation and learning communist ideals. I missed the bit where central experts in the 1840s south planned every aspect of crop production for the entire nation. And that's just getting started.
None of that is relevant- the workers are stuck there taking it in the ass while others profit from their labor. It doesn't matter if it's state directed or undirected. It doesn't matter if it was originally intended to be communist and just wound up an obvious spectacular failure at that quickly. If you take the basic left-wing communist/socialist ideal of worker/common ownership of means of production AND shared benefit of the surplus, or at the very least the latter, it simply never existed. At all. And post-Mao, there's overwhelming evidence that it's not the intended result. Why do you think it's the goal today?

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So because none of the hard-left communist states distributed the economic output equally, they were all actually right wing capitalists.

This is just gold man. I don't even know what to say. Congrats on trolling me, I guess?
There are more than 2 arrangements. Obviously Russia and China weren't capitalist to any meaningful degree 65 years ago. That doesn't mean they were communist or socialist, just centrally planned. Modern Nordic states match left-wing economic ideals far, far more in reality despite plenty of private enterprise going on. Their intent, clearly, is to distribute a lot of the surplus among everybody, and they do. China doesn't do that to any significant degree, and they aren't even trying to.
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