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Old 02-09-2017, 02:20 AM   #26
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Can we just rename this the "masque rants about Trump containment thread"?
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Roman and Greek civilizations where pretty damn interesting.
Agreed. The philosophy and religion in ancient Greece for example is fascinating. Oh for a Bacchus festival...

Did you know that Pakistan used to be Buddhist before the Muslims turned it barbaric? And that Greco-Buddhism was a thing? I wonder how much it informed their worldview and philosophy. Although Greek breakthroughs do seem to predate Greco-Buddhism.

As for slavery, it's amazing how much we took for granted as normal and right is seen as pure evil in this age. I wonder how much the pendulum will swing back.

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Old 02-09-2017, 02:26 AM   #27
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Can we just rename this the "masque rants about Trump containment thread"?
I can start ranting too, building up for it. It's good to let correct opinions be repeated from time to time.

Every bashing Trump gets right now must be correct in my book. In my book he was unnecessary, but apparently not. People want to do it the hard way. Just not electing him would have been so much easier.

Fortunately you have a system where a random judge can stop the president when he's insensible, kudos.

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Old 02-09-2017, 04:33 PM   #28
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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I can start ranting too, building up for it. It's good to let correct opinions be repeated from time to time.

Every bashing Trump gets right now must be correct in my book. In my book he was unnecessary, but apparently not. People want to do it the hard way. Just not electing him would have been so much easier.

Fortunately you have a system where a random judge can stop the president when he's insensible, kudos.
Our system has checks and balances, which have served us well. The executive branch has gained a lot of power over the ages, and it's scary that we have a foolish child leading it. Our courts can check him when he overreaches to some degree. This guy thinks they won't be strong enough, and that he can easily go around them: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ocracy/513872/

He believes the "court of public opinion" is where Trump can be checked, or else he may build an authoritarian regime. If he can continue sewing discord within our society and widening the already large divide between the right an left wings, he can use that to increase his power and we might be Hungary soon.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:54 PM   #29
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

It's amazing to see sane people go full unhinged. The Trump-as-dictator threat simply does not exist in any way, shape or form. The same PC/polite groupthink politics that failed to realize Hitler was Hitler and marginalized anyone who said he was, now thinks that Trump is Hitler and marginalizes anyone who thinks he isn't. It's one of the weirdest things I've ever seen.

IMO the real story is just how crazy the media is. They are pure hysterical fake news.

16 Fake News Stories Reporters Have Run Since Trump Won

IMO if none of you listened to the media, or if we had the 90s media, you would have a very benign (and hence correct) view of Trump. It's rather worrying the power that the media have, and how completely crazy they are. There's not even a pretense of balance any more. It's probably partly due to the internet and advertising which favors sensationalism over accuracy. Everything moves so fast and is shared so much on social media that reputation doesn't matter - you can say anything and no one cares, they'll click your next clickbait and share it and bring in the ad dollars.

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Old 02-09-2017, 05:29 PM   #30
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

I think much of it though is due also to reporters who are politically indoctrinated and philosophically unsophistcated, who've never lived outside of college/Washington/big city/groupthink ideological bubbles, and really have no clue at all how the world works or how wrong their worldview/beliefs might be or how broad philosophy really is. That some Republicans are equally crazy doesn't help - they get to point and say "look at those crazies"!

I don't know how to fix it. It'll probably get worse before it gets better. Trump is like the exorcist for these people - he'll cure them, but they're going to wail and gnash teeth a lot.
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Old 02-09-2017, 07:48 PM   #31
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

I agree the crazy PC left created him, or made his rise possible, but the guy is a narcissistic scam artist who looks ripe to become a real monster with power. I don't know how anyone learns about Trump U and thinks, yeah that guy should run our country.
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Old 02-09-2017, 08:04 PM   #32
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Who do you want on your team, negotiating US interests?

A scammer with a big heart who genuinely cares about this country?
One half of a powerful political dynasty who operated as Secretary of State a barely concealed pay-to-play in the billions with shady foreign despots and corporations?

The point is, if someone is fighting for you, you want them to be a little bit nasty and underhanded and with a clear-eyed view of the darker side of human nature, but not outright corrupt.

Trump is doing this because he cares about the country and thinks he can do good. There is no other reason to give up the life of a billionaire at his age. He's repeatedly avoided political life even though he had a good shot at it - with his connections and PR savvy he could have easily been a governor or a house member, on track for a typical presidency.

I mean, these are his views 30 years ago:



Even longer ago:


The view you have of Trump is pure fictional creation. The man has a huge heart and cares about this country. That's not incompatible with being ruthless in business or even soft scam caveat emptor.

Anyway. This is more a masque containment thread (hi masque) than a politics thread so I'll leave it at that, but smart people who've been duped by groupthinking ideologues annoy me. What can I say.
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Old 02-09-2017, 08:39 PM   #33
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

It's hard to understand why anyone would trust a scam artist, is it because they seem so sincere? Why would someone rich want to be the President... what kind of question is that? Who cares? Maybe he likes Kevin Spacey:



I could give a damn why. The idea he has any clue how to not **** it all up, crap the bed and piss on the world is my concern.
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:17 PM   #34
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Min.../dp/B0052FF7YM
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:21 PM   #35
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Originally Posted by FoldnDark View Post
It's hard to understand why anyone would trust a scam artist
Because a highly successful scam artist is precisely who you want going to bat for you, as long as they're on your side. As lot of people, from politicians to academia, don't get this. Business people do. Dealmakers do. People who understand game theory do.

A lot of academics and the commentariat are like children. I've known several who've gone into business or trading and gotten swindled for everything they have because they are so stupid and so narrow minded and so rules-based they don't understand how the world works. They have rich mental models that are far more complex and high level and well thought out than the people who scam them/outdo them in business, but they get scammed/outdone anyway? Why? Because the complex and intelligent and well reasoned worldviews they hold don't capture reality at all.

The same thing happens (and is happening) on a country level to the US right now.
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is it because they seem so sincere?
That's part of it. His use of language creates emotion and trust and a connection. But ultimately it's because of how the entire package makes sense and comes together.
Quote:
I could give a damn why. The idea he has any clue how to not **** it all up, crap the bed and piss on the world is my concern.
What makes you think he's doing that? I see no evidence of that whatsoever. Obama & Clinton created ISIS. The Syrian crisis via the creation of force parity by arming and funding the rebels, which greatly prolonged the war and created a refugee crisis as a side effect, which has led to the rise of the right in Europe as a reaction. The chaos in Libya. Were ineffective in containing Russia. Have let China militarize islands near the Philippines, and steal trillions in US wealth and jobs, when that could have been nipped in the bud early. Doubled insurance & drug company profits while premiums and deductibles soar. Caused CO2 to soar at an incredible rate thanks to idiotic policies that are the worst and most polluting you could choose.

Who exactly is crapping the bed?

I know you get your views from the media, but the media is nuts, Foldn. They are not reporting reality, but pure hysterical paranoia from a groupthink of Trump = the devil. I have the benefit of having seen the same thing in Australia some years ago, where they turned the conservative Prime Minister into a kind of Emmanuel Goldstein, and hated and disparaged everything he did, and reported it with amazing bias. You're just getting that with Trump now. The left has drunk their own kool aid and have lost touch with reality. It happens - it happened to the right in the US over the preceding decades.

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Old 02-10-2017, 01:07 AM   #36
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Originally Posted by ToothSayer View Post
Because a highly successful scam artist is precisely who you want going to bat for you, as long as they're on your side. As lot of people, from politicians to academia, don't get this. Business people do. Dealmakers do. People who understand game theory do.

A lot of academics and the commentariat are like children. I've known several who've gone into business or trading and gotten swindled for everything they have because they are so stupid and so narrow minded and so rules-based they don't understand how the world works. They have rich mental models that are far more complex and high level and well thought out than the people who scam them/outdo them in business, but they get scammed/outdone anyway? Why? Because the complex and intelligent and well reasoned worldviews they hold don't capture reality at all.

The same thing happens (and is happening) on a country level to the US right now.

That's part of it. His use of language creates emotion and trust and a connection. But ultimately it's because of how the entire package makes sense and comes together.

What makes you think he's doing that? I see no evidence of that whatsoever. Obama & Clinton created ISIS. The Syrian crisis via the creation of force parity by arming and funding the rebels, which greatly prolonged the war and created a refugee crisis as a side effect, which has led to the rise of the right in Europe as a reaction. The chaos in Libya. Were ineffective in containing Russia. Have let China militarize islands near the Philippines, and steal trillions in US wealth and jobs, when that could have been nipped in the bud early. Doubled insurance & drug company profits while premiums and deductibles soar. Caused CO2 to soar at an incredible rate thanks to idiotic policies that are the worst and most polluting you could choose.

Who exactly is crapping the bed?

I know you get your views from the media, but the media is nuts, Foldn. They are not reporting reality, but pure hysterical paranoia from a groupthink of Trump = the devil. I have the benefit of having seen the same thing in Australia some years ago, where they turned the conservative Prime Minister into a kind of Emmanuel Goldstein, and hated and disparaged everything he did, and reported it with amazing bias. You're just getting that with Trump now. The left has drunk their own kool aid and have lost touch with reality. It happens - it happened to the right in the US over the preceding decades.
Trump is crapping the bed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Reuters has an absolutely terrifying profile of the man with the nuclear codes: Exclusive: In call with Putin, Trump denounced Obama-era nuclear arms treaty - sources


"When Putin raised the possibility of extending the 2010 treaty, known as New START, Trump paused to ask his aides in an aside what the treaty was, these sources said.

Trump then told Putin the treaty was one of several bad deals negotiated by the Obama administration, saying that New START favored Russia. Trump also talked about his own popularity, the sources said."

"During a debate in the 2016 presidential election, Trump said Russia had "outsmarted" the United States with the treaty, which he called "START-Up." He asserted incorrectly then that it had allowed Russia to continue to produce nuclear warheads while the United States could not."

"Typically, before a telephone call with a foreign leader, a president receives a written in-depth briefing paper drafted by National Security Council staff after consultations with the relevant agencies, including the State Department, Pentagon and intelligence agencies, two former senior officials said.

Just before the call, the president also usually receives an oral "pre-briefing" from his national security adviser and top subject-matter aide, they said.

Trump did not receive a briefing from Russia experts with the NSC and intelligence agencies before the Putin call, two of the sources said. Reuters was unable to determine if Trump received a briefing from his national security adviser Michael Flynn."


jesus christ
Also,

Quote:
“It’s impossible to overstate the negligence of the president of the United States not knowing basic facts about nuclear policy and arms control,” Shaheen said in a statement. "New START has unquestionably made our country safer, an opinion widely shared by national security experts on both sides of the aisle."
I get that you don't trust the MSM, but FFS do you trust national security experts? Do you trust anyone at all who doesn't tell you what you want to hear, because this is some serious **** dude.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:14 AM   #37
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

The system of checks and balances with the courts works, as long as the court follows the law. Which the Washington judge clearly did not do. Instead, he got all worked up over the President's motivation, which he disagreed with, whereas the law says it's at the President's discretion.

Is the POTUS narcissistic? Sure, but I don't care. We're not going to be best buds, he's not going to help me move, we're not hanging out watching the game on tv. All I care about is what he does, which so far has been stellar for the most part.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:05 AM   #38
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Donald, "The Mouth" Trump, causes much uproar for one simple reason. He uses his right to freedom of speech. Much more so than almost any American Politician in history. What is so useful in this is how much it causes so many people to foam at the mouth, gasp in disbelieve, or act horrified, and it revels their own underlying self-righteous conceits. It also revels in stark highlight their hypocrisy and fear. It unequivocally shows that the majority of people only give lukewarm lip service to the first amendment. It only applies if you make nice and keep to the safe road of correctness as the cowards see it, and wish to enforce on everyone else. Thus the more easily to control and subdue you into a plebian slave.

Just in that alone it is worth having this blow hard in the top slot. Everyday he will jab an ice pick into almost everyone's left eyeball. That is precisely what is needed. Putin also understands this. He just goes about it in a more clandestine way.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:15 AM   #39
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

I bet Trump is glad for all the people criticizing him, it must warm his heart having that many people exercising their freedom of speech!
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:21 AM   #40
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

He is not exercising free speech. He is killing the ability to have a legitimate speech you can count on because lies now exist everywhere. He is playing a game theoretical death spiral of free speech where you lie optimally in order to destroy the very reason speech exists ie to communicate information and lead to civilization. He makes now all kinds of people lie for him too by mixing lies with half truths and occasional valid points but treated badly.

This is is his early legacy. There is no worse corruption for your youth but the one delivered by the president himself at this moment with his conduct.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:27 AM   #41
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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I bet Trump is glad for all the people criticizing him, it must warm his heart having that many people exercising their freedom of speech!
Probably not. But it is difficult to assume that you personally know what he is thinking. Being a mind reader is only for those with perfect mindfulness of others, aside from themselves. So you just have to guess and then say you are right and get the plebs to believe you. Still that is actually a side issue. My main point still stands. People accept the right to freedom of speech as long as it applies to what they want to hear. If Mr. Mouth Donald Trump never existed, that point still stands. In bright flashing highlight.

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Old 02-10-2017, 03:37 AM   #42
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Lying correctly is the best strategy. -Zeno*

* From the First Gospel of Zeno, chapter 1, verse 2.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:45 AM   #43
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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Probably not. But it is difficult to assume that you personally know what he is thinking. Being a mind reader is only for those with perfect mindfulness of others, aside from themselves. So you just have to guess and then say you are right and get the plebs to believe you. Still that is actually a side issue. My main point still stands. People accept the right to freedom of speech as long as it applies to what they want to hear. If Mr. Mouth Donald Trump never existed, that point still stands. In bright flashing highlight


Lying correctly is the best strategy. -Zeno*

* From the First Gospel of Zeno, chapter 1, verse 2.


.
I of course also agree with a lot of what you say in the spirit meant (as i perceive it).


There is a profound difference between lying optimally to secure essential progress and coexistence among emotional living beings or to maintain a system that remains alert to its failures, where only naive people think never lying is a virtue, and lying in order to undermine any civil discussion making impossible to propagate legitimate trustworthy arguments between people that should care for the validity of the information communicated. We have nothing without faithful information. What can we build out of failure to care for details and objectivity? Only a regret at some great cost for the failure to communicate ethically.


The true character of a person is revealed by how they operate when nobody is looking. However for some people this is not even necessary at all. You know anyway.




This mfer you have for president dared to say that for any terrorist action that happens the judges are to blame now!

Who the f*ck among you Americans can stand up to this imbecile and with a clear and loud voice ask; Mr President, are these judges also responsible for all good that will come from all those thousands of people that will go back to their education, research, colleagues, business, families, the gradual undermining even of their original dogmatic religious upbringing delivered through their interaction with the rest of American society? Are they also responsible for the recognition of the international community that yes in US that a Trump can be "elected" , judges can also rise up and not do what usually happens in other countries when such people get "elected", ie refuse to yield to the abuse of power and the rise of a new tyrant.

If we can count the probability that a terrorist attack will happen (and dare not hold at all responsible the intelligence services or all of us and our choices) and all the good that can happen on the other side, what is the true final outcome? In what direction is the "balance" moving? Of course we should not expect deplorables to ever grasp such possibility or even recognize how true wisdom is built out of the lack of free will through the collective way we treat each other. What is the wisdom delivered today by your leader?

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Old 02-10-2017, 05:57 AM   #44
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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I get that you don't trust the MSM, but FFS do you trust national security experts? Do you trust anyone at all who doesn't tell you what you want to hear, because this is some serious **** dude.
Much of what you read about Trump is fake news. Quite a bit of leaked by Trump himself. The "experts" you quote are just people asked for their opinion on what the media presents as fact. Again, you have no clue whatsoever whether anything you're presenting here is true.

The media is broken. They sensationally report anything ridiculous they can about the president, because it plays to the hysterical, fact-free perception they created and gets ratings. There are hundreds of examples. I posted a list of a tiny fraction of pure fake news articles by the core of the mainstream media, who are recklessly irresponsible.

Let me give you another example. During the election there was much made of how Trump didn't have much of a political organization/ground game/data operation. He was presented by the media as a guy who thought rallies would fix everything up, who kind of bumbled along, while Clinton had a massive Big Data operation with the cutting edge in political science. The narrative of Trump as a bumbling idiot trying to do things the old way and not really having clue was widely played. It also fed the perception that Clinton would win.

That was all fake news. Trump actually encouraged this perception of himself through well placed leaks and manipulation and public statements. In reality, behind the scenes, this was happening:

Why Big Data Wasn't Trump's Achilles Heel After All

Quote:
Blindsiding his opponent into thinking she had the data game sewn up, Trump himself reaped the benefits of continuing to play the part of the techno-sceptic “everyman” in front of his largely blue collar supporters. In reality, he had quietly left the critical work to someone in a better position to know what they were doing.
Quote:
As time has passed though, and journalists and analysts have begun to make some sense of how the biggest upset in modern American politics came to take place, it is clear that Trump’s campaign, once he realized he had a real shot at the presidency, was far more data-savvy than many people had thought.
Trump actually had Hillary crushed on the use of analytics and big data, which is one reason he won.

Nothing you read about Trump in the media is real. It's all a fictional creation, much of it leaked by Trump himself. I assure you they're having a grand old time leaking stories about Trump in his bathrobes, watching "the shows", about Bannon controlling things, and so much more. The plebs and media eat it up and take it as reality, but it's just a nonsense sideshow. Trump's been doing it for years and it's how he got the presidency as an outsider with no political experience and far less money. Amazingly, people still haven't woken up to just how smart he is.

In my opinion, if you think Trump has nefarious aims, you should be terrified. He's not the bumbling idiot he's presenting himself as via well placed leaks.

I'm not worried at all because it's obvious he's a very good person, and highly competent.
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Old 02-10-2017, 06:14 AM   #45
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41...ighlight=trump

I voted 1-2 years. How about you? It must have been a couple of months ago.

He is destroying things for himself even faster than I anticipated, and people are starting taking notice. Today I'd probably vote 6-12 months. Indeed, it may be wishful thinking. Maybe the majority is right...(the majority in the 2+2 poll, that is)

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Old 02-10-2017, 06:21 AM   #46
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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He is destroying things for himself even faster than I anticipated, and people are starting taking notice.
What, precisely, is he destroying? It seems he's getting what he wants, and pushing through his agenda at light speed.
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Old 02-10-2017, 06:28 AM   #47
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

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What, precisely, is he destroying? It seems he's getting what he wants, and pushing through his agenda at light speed.
It's just a feeling about how it all will end. Peoole are getting angrier and angrier. It will have consequences. Nobody can afford to be massively hated in a democracy. The "light speed" is one of the factors that will not work long term.

Every politician knows that.
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Old 02-10-2017, 06:47 AM   #48
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

And by the way so that i dont appear to just be mad for no reason or like cursing.

Pay attention to what is going on lately in other places like Iran.

There is nothing like an Ayatollah eating @$#t after his own statement that the US is showing its true face with Trump. I wonder what face is the US showing now that judges stood up to him or with the people protesting in airports or with the universities and companies. Lets see how often this happens in Iran in their bs revolution of tyranny and fear regime.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/07/politi...nts/index.html

Will the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei now come out and say something different taking back his words as he should or will he simply take the well known path of declaring victory that the other side yielded to the fear of the "mighty revolutionary leaders".

And you see this is exactly why we shouldn't be like them. We should be able to see things closer to the truth and when we fail do it honestly not intentionally distorting what is going on immersed in propaganda and lies.

This is why people like Trump are dangerous. Because he is unable to see that maybe just maybe Obama was also unhappy with Islamic extremism and even maybe mainstream trends too and there is a proper way to defeat the extremism and culturally strengthen mainstream Islam and a wrong way that increases it evils without achieving anything.


Also i would invite those that support Trump to not see my posts as attack on them or their ideas. Please keep explaining your positions and why you like him or what has been achieved in light speed.
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Old 02-10-2017, 06:56 AM   #49
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Apparently there's a lot to discuss. I'd wish it would be unnecessary, but it apparently isn't.

This may be the birth pain of real globalization. Giving birth shouldn't be that painful nowadays.
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Old 02-10-2017, 07:10 AM   #50
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Join Date: Jul 2015
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Re: The politarding thread of SMP, for really really really sorting things out

Quote:
Originally Posted by masque de Z View Post
This is why people like Trump are dangerous. Because he is unable to see that maybe just maybe Obama was also unhappy with Islamic extremism and even maybe mainstream trends too and there is a proper way to defeat the extremism and culturally strengthen mainstream Islam and a wrong way that increases it evils without achieving anything.
You do understand that under Obama's policies, the ME went from somewhat stable sans Iraq to becoming a vast region plagued by civil war and an Islamic caliphate? That Obama gave this regime in Iran - a funder of terror - $150 billion dollars? That millions of people now live in fear under the worst kind of Islam because Obama armed and funded ISIS, and sat on his hands against the advice of his generals while they grew like a cancer through Iraq? That he/Clinton helped them by assinating Qaddafi and throwing Libya in civil war? That 300,000 are dead because Obama was a fool who thought the "Arab Spring" would bring democracy and be a good thing (fundamentally misunderstanding Islam and Islamic people in the process)?

Obama would have been hounded from office if he wasn't black and a darling of the left. Imagine Trump's policy left 300K dead, directly armed and funded the biggest terror group in modern history that dwarfs Al Qaeda, and created a refugee crisis that swamped Europe.

It's almost like you're a puppet of what the media tells you and have no mind of your own. How do you look at the FACTS above and think the Obama doctrine of dealing with Islam and the ME has been anything other than the worst kind of failure possible?

We're not dealing with opinions here. The above are facts. But you think Trump is the problem....
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