Is morality possible without free will? - Page 2 - Science, Math and Philosophy Forum

I like this. I did replace it with God and I get your point. Despite the fact that I'm an atheist, I still recognize that God exists in as much as it is an idea that has affected a vast array of human events. Despite lacking a physical realness, concepts like justice, God, morality, love, have affected the world around us. They ARE real AS concepts.

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10-25-2008 , 01:28 PM

#27

Professor_Jones

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Quote:

Originally Posted by farinaccio

No, not at all. You seem to think that my claim that free will is unprovable is an excuse for all of my actions. I embrace my actions and accept their consequences. Criminals should be punished for what they do. Good should be rewarded. We just can't prove that the criminals or the judges freely choose whatever course of action they embark upon.

If you do something and no one forces you to do it, who's choice was it if not yours?

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10-25-2008 , 01:32 PM

#28

farinaccio

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

If you do something and no one forces you to do it, who's choice is it if not yours?

The point is that we can't prove it was a choice. It might simply be the result of billions of years of physical, chemical, nuclear, (and other?) scientifically determined reactions culminating in a particular action at a particular place and time.

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10-25-2008 , 01:37 PM

#29

Professor_Jones

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Originally Posted by farinaccio

Yea, that's exactly what's happening, but it's still something you've chosen to do.

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10-25-2008 , 01:41 PM

#30

farinaccio

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Fine, you can call it a choice if that is "exactly what is happening" but I'm n ot convinced you can call it free.

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10-25-2008 , 01:42 PM

#31

46:1

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Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

Yea, that's exactly what's happening, but it's still something you've chosen to do.

Nah, rather it is the determinism that is exerting itself through you.

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10-25-2008 , 01:43 PM

#32

Professor_Jones

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Quote:

Originally Posted by farinaccio

Fine, you can call it a choice if that is "exactly what is happening" but I'm n ot convinced you can call it free.

Well who's stopping you from choosing what to do?

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10-25-2008 , 01:45 PM

#33

Professor_Jones

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Originally Posted by 46:1

Nah, rather it is the determinism that is exerting itself through you.

I make my own choices so this is clearly wrong in my case.

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10-25-2008 , 01:47 PM

#34

46:1

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

Well who's stopping you from choosing what to do?

Determinism.

You can not redefine free will as 'unforced will' and say that determinism actually culminates in your actions, without acknowledging the force of determinism.

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10-25-2008 , 01:49 PM

#35

46:1

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Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

I make my own choices so this is clearly wrong in my case.

One day we will find out 'free will' is actually a rare disease.

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10-25-2008 , 01:51 PM

#36

Professor_Jones

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Originally Posted by 46:1

Determinism.

You can not redefine free will as 'unforced will' and say that determinism actually culminates in your actions, without acknowledging the force of determinism.

I get what you're saying, but when it's time to make a choice these things are only whispers and I'm free to ignore them as I please.

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10-25-2008 , 02:06 PM

#37

46:1

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Originally Posted by Professor_Jones

I get what you're saying, but when it's time to make a choice these things are only whispers and I'm free to ignore them as I please.

This sounds like a hybrid free will and very appealing, but I doubt it would hold any grounds in philosophical debate.

You opened the floodgates. Determinism flows through you, but you control the gates. Some currents are stronger and the gates get harder to close, others allow you near full control.

Are you sure you aren't imagining those tiny gatekeepers? Are they neccessary for describing your behaviour and mental states?

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10-25-2008 , 02:18 PM

#38

Professor_Jones

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 46:1

All I know is that I'm in control of my actions at all times.

I don't think this is groundbreaking at all and if I'm on some sort of level that you aren't, it's a shame because the experience is a life of fulfilment.

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10-25-2008 , 02:28 PM

#39

tame_deuces

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A feeling of choice does not prove free will anymore than a feeling of hunger proves free hunger.

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10-25-2008 , 02:42 PM

#40

Professor_Jones

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A feeling can precede choice, but the feeling doesn't have to dictate the choice. The reverse is also true.

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10-25-2008 , 02:48 PM

#41

tame_deuces

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That's a very hazy sentence and doesn't really mean much.

But anyway - if we take it at face value then for this discussion it doesn't matter if "a feeling" influences a choice or fails to influence a choice, or that choice influences or fails to influence "a feeling" - it still doesn't prove free will.

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10-25-2008 , 02:51 PM

#42

Professor_Jones

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces

It proves you have control over your choices and feelings.

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10-25-2008 , 02:52 PM

#43

Valuejacker

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It doesn't though.

It only implies that there is a loose correlation between feeling and choice.

There is nothing to prevent this from being illusory.

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10-25-2008 , 02:53 PM

#44

thylacine

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Quote:

Originally Posted by farinaccio

Yep. Pretty much.

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10-25-2008 , 02:56 PM

#45

Professor_Jones

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The only connection your feelings share with your choices is the connection you allow them to share. That choice is is decided by you, whether you want to admit it or not.

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10-25-2008 , 02:59 PM

#46

tame_deuces

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I take it people who don't feel as if they have a choice (for example obsessive compulsive disorders, slaves, people in panic etc.) don't have free will then.

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10-25-2008 , 03:01 PM

#47

Professor_Jones

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What does it matter, you have free will and I just proved it.

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10-25-2008 , 03:03 PM

#48

tame_deuces

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No, I don't really feel like you proved it - hence you didn't.

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10-25-2008 , 03:05 PM

#49

Professor_Jones

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Well that's your loss, not mine.

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10-25-2008 , 03:05 PM

#50

Jibninjas

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

I take it people who don't feel as if they have a choice (for example obsessive compulsive disorders, slaves, people in panic etc.) don't have free will then.

when you talk about people that have OCD or people in panic.

Is it that they do not have free will or that they are held in captivity by their belief that they do not have free will.

In other words, do they actually have a choice but because they choose to believe that they do not have a choice it is hidering them from making the choice.

so have people that have ocd already made the choice to believe that they have no choice

and therefore actually do have a choice.

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