What makes it a delusion is the belief that these principles hold true all the time.

What you've outlined here is essentially: good = good, bad = bad, but there are many examples in nature where this doesn't add up.

Even if your intentions and behaviour are good, something bad can still come of them/something bad can still happen to you; and vice versa.

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is in a great battle."

(Gloria Vanderbilt's favorite piece of advice)


PairTheBoard

It seems like we've derailed the thread quite a bit, and I will continue to do so, only because I have to roll my eyes when people talk about karma, as it is poorly defined in popular culture, as if it is some guiding rule that has the weight of the gods behind it.

The definition of karma that is thrown around in the Western world (and in this thread, Wikipedia's introduction, and Google's definition) is exactly that--Western, which makes it into a bastardized concept that has borrowed its name from the original Eastern/Buddhist/Hindu concept. I am speaking of the idea that good deeds beget good outcomes for the do-gooder, so to speak. It's a neat idea, but nothing close to what Buddhist monks mean when they say Karma, and certainly isn't what they meditate about.

Karma is not a principle that governs what will happen within the scope of any one lifetime. In some ways it is a rudimentary argument for the interconnectedness of the conscious actions of all humans or all conscious beings, depending on what you believe, and the resulting nature of the universe. Think of it as spiritual or existential physics, perhaps. But even those words have misleading connotations.

Here is a link to Alan Watts speaking about the misconception of Karma. I have found him to be the most articulate and knowledgeable scholar on Eastern concepts (for Western audiences)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw4tNQAJw50

I hesitate to define Karma any further. I am no expert. But I believe the most fundamental misunderstanding is the focus on the individual when talking about Karma. If anything, think of karma like this: when you act in this life, you contribute to a pattern, perhaps as insignificant as a molecule of water in a vast ocean. That overarching pattern was there long before you showed up, and you will be enveloped in it, this metaphorical ocean, in its existing form regardless of your contribution. Nevertheless, the ocean is composed of countless water molecules, and the actions of individuals who came before you certainly contributed to the circumstances in which you find yourself. Were you one of those individuals in a past life? Who knows/problably not. But here is what the Buddhist sage would say is the important point: you and I will be chained and bound to our actions so long as we strive to push them in one direction or another. Nirvana is the only release from karma, from the ocean or pattern, as I have called it.

Now it's 4am and I've been drinking, so I'll leave it at that.

VeeDDzz not getting enough credit.... the rest is mostly nonsense

OK, thanks for popping in.

Went for the visual representation, hope this helps clarify my point.



Also, yay for MSpaint.

Well, it clarifies something, but what I'm not sure.

The list under "Factors involved in variable include aspects such as:" have two listed that mystify me (well they all do really but the ones below especially):

"/Places-to-be
/External-life"


Karma is a great word to bring up at the poker table and also at cocktail parties and dinner parties and friend gatherings and just plain party parties. Not to be taken seriously. Which is what I'm taking away from the "Karma Visual Representation" posted.

You mentioned it briefly but I'd very much appreciate some of your writing on integrity, if you have any?

Thanks for the post.

I was hoping your notions had a stronger reference to the conception of integrity as - 'consistency between promises/words and deeds'. Instead, I think you may be more interested in notions of structural integrity.

In regards to poker integrity refers essentially to the security and profitability of the game

Seems a bit narrow to me. Integrity (to me) implies moral values. Making a profit and being a good human being.

(1) Why does everyone insist on defining integrity upon moral aspects?
Hitler may just as well had integrity (consistency between words/promises and deeds) without a particularly strong moral compass.

Having integrity, and thus being trustworthy, does not mean you automatically possess all other moral virtues.

(2) Why would one's morality moderate or mediate their success in poker?
I think morality has little, if anything to do with it.

The main moderator I would argue for is the aspect of integrity that has very little to do with morality. In particular: consistency between words/promises and deeds.

Deal all the cards face up.


PairTheBoard

Because that is what the definition of integrity is

integrity
ɪnˈtɛɡrɪti/
noun
1.
the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles.
"a gentleman of complete integrity"
synonyms: honesty, uprightness, probity, rectitude, honour, honourableness, upstandingness, good character, principle(s), ethics, morals, righteousness, morality, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness, virtue, decency, fairness, scrupulousness, sincerity, truthfulness, trustworthiness
"I never doubted his integrity"

Hitler wasn't such a man.

2. Because poker is part of life, and living your life includes morals.

1) They are indeed separate concepts and the reference you made is an accurate description. Hopefully I can explain further in the next point.

2) Consider everything Quantum Physics reveals regarding reality.
All possibilities are potential and no event can occur unless observed.
From this, reality very quickly appears as a monster flip book for a magnum story, each of us.
Consider also, if you will, the likelihood that sometime during all of infinity at least one sentient being was successful in living trillions of years and having run out of things to do decided to create and observe it's own universe.
So then! From these premises we have a brief mix of scientific, spiritual and theoretical concepts to hold onto while explaining the answer to your question.
Using poker as the scenarios backdrop, say you have 9 people observing each other, each wanting to have what they consider to be a favourable outcome. As the flip book's pages turn, observational data from each of the observers is gathered and the wave of potentiality most likely to eventuate will be the outcome most favourable to the greatest number of people.
As for integrity, morality, or any of the affecting mechanics, allow a moments consideration that the bulk of consciousness is yet to be born. Now, consider these consciousnesses as observers with access to your thought stream, these thoughts occur faster than any physical actions or judgements and are gathered by the same source that collected the observational/reaction data. Imagine that source to be a computer of finite processing capacity and examine the likelihood that in order to minimise processing times and operate without lag; flip book pages can be pre filled based on these thoughts should the players integrity not be in question. Morality in particular is just one of the varied categories utilised when determining the eventuality of each wave, which again, is the outcome most favourable to the greatest number of people. As an extreme example, as the outcome of that $10,000 pot being between two players of equal karmic standing is being finalised in the flip book it stands to be asked is it going to benefit more people going to the hedonist that is intending to splurge on prostitutes, baccarat and liquor; or the gentleman intending to support himself while giving to charity.

Another rather significant factor to consider is entitlement. This one is particularly tricky and as I've been awake almost 36 hours most attempts to explain it coherently are seeming likely to fail.. In a summary format, entitlement can be seen as a kind of self sabotage, basically caused, amongst other reasons, from being too overzealous when declaring victory, in both mental or physical terms. As in, you notice an opposing player make a move that you know results in a negative wave outcome when you do it, so you double down in your efforts to profit from the opposing players mistake. As a direct result you, (Or that the player hadn't learnt the move was incorrect yet!) alter their likely outcome by adding negative weight to your own for effectively attacking a victim! Be the better man and don't give into greed! Show some love and help them avoid the same mistake. You can never be sure when the fish intending and willing to loose a few buyins will sit down... And guess who just earned a bucket load of good karma? However... Don't feel entitled to it! Only review in hindsight!

Hope this helps each and every person with their journey, much love.
Try not to get carried away with the flip book reference, abstract only!
Go Team Universe!

If all outcomes are based on some sort of Karma calculation, then how do you account for the holocaust under this theoretical lens?

Was the death of all those Jewish people "most favourable to the greatest number of people"? or was it entirely unnecessary? or?

How about the history of enslavement of hundreds of thousands of black people?

That is one definition of integrity indeed. There is however no consensus, as to a definition, in the psychology literature on integrity.

When you say no consensus, do you mean absolutely none? I am sure there will be some.

I have forgotten what we are discussing though.

Integrity is too messy of a concept and it doesn't appear to be a particularly useful one since it doesn't tend to show up when you do factor analysis of personality tests.

I'm working on it.

I think a lot of the trouble is that it's not a consistently applied value across different roles in people's lives. For example, you may have integrity in your parenting role, toward everything you say/do for your child for example, but you may have little integrity in your social and work roles and you may be late to meetings every single day. It's also interesting that people find it so inherently important to teach to their children, while failing to apply it in other aspects of their own lives.

This lack of consistent application, is simply a reflection of the fact that humans aren't robots and that they value different life roles more or less.

Subsequently, I think that factor miss-specification is a serious issue here, in both their insistence to measure it as permanent across all roles, and as having a normative (moral) quality. There are other issues here too of course, stemming from theoretical misunderstandings that place too much focus on Aristotle's notions of integrity.

P.S. this is not even my field of research, as I mainly research organisational behaviour, but I've picked up on the overlooked significance of integrity recently: both between consistency in employee behaviour and organisational strategy, and consistency between individual promises and deeds.

This is the perverted western world ideal of karma, do good things and good things will happen to you, so pathetic and pleading. The original idea of karma is that it only takes effect in your next life. So if you're a rapist you can certainly get away with it your whole life and be happy, but your next life you will reincarnate as some savage animal or worse. This original version is much more deterministic than the positive free will hippy bull**** that the Western world materialists like to believe. There are six realms of conscious experience in Buddhism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire...he_Six_Domains

Silliness in spades. First, animals are not savage. Second, "worse" is not categorically comparable. Third, there is this memory thing tied to continuity.

That is, if any of the above is taken seriously. Anyway, I would love to be a "savage animal" in my next incarnation. I would take pictures and send them to my former relatives.

Of course there is no memory of where you were before, defeating the free will aspect of karma. Hell, you can be alive and still lose all memory with amnesia, certainly the death process would erase it all, like erasing software from a computer, but the hardware remains. Not that I believe any of this, just clearing up the misconception that good or bad karma yields immediate results.

FWIW that isn't what I said.

I said tends to (as in rapists tend to get put in prison), and I didn't specify a time frame.

Eckhart Tolle on karma(unconscious thoughts/behavioral patterns)....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScMCbyvEiSE