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Ethics, morality and hard determinism Ethics, morality and hard determinism

10-30-2014 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
You don't "choose" whether a chicken sandwich is enjoyable or not. You either find it enjoyable or you don't.
So?

If you like the chicken sandwich, then it is good. If you don't, then it is bad.

If you find that problematic, then you are welcome to principled resistance by taking on the dietary preferences of the dung beetle.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-30-2014 , 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
Then your statement makes no sense or at least the word morals doesn't mean anything in this conversation. Basically you could say "I live the way I want to live and I feel good about it" to me that statement is more clear and nothing to do with morals. In other words one just acts and not calling it a moral action.
Yes I'm using the words 'moral' quite loosely but there are different moral codes out there that emphasize selfish behavior as opposed to altruistic behavior. Codes that are ultimately utilitarian in nature, and thus arguably moral.

Furthermore, its a little disingenuous for you to imply that being loved or liked by someone else does nothing for you. If it did nothing for you, you wouldn't have a girlfriend. If it did nothing for you, you wouldn't have any friends at all. If it did nothing for you, you wouldn't post here nowhere near as much. We all seek human connection and human acceptance. That much is universal. Even sociopaths, psychopaths and maniacs need this.

As such, it's in your best interest to behave (to some degree) in a moral/altruistic manner agreed upon by the wider civilization: if you want to keep being loved/liked by others. It's also in your best interest to rock up to work every day. Not because someone else says so but because you ought to intrinsically motivate yourself to give back to the civilization that's providing you with so much cool technology, entertainment, security and most importantly, access to medicine and medical care (when needed).

Did you create the very computer that you're reading this off of right now? No? But you have access to it somehow nonetheless? The system/society/civilization has given you some amazing things that you couldn't fathom creating yourself and you feel it such a chore to give back don't you?

Otherwise, take yourself outside of the system (yes there are places you could go) where you can live a completely self-sufficient life and have a look at just how enjoyable that way of life is. There are a few people doing this, and after watching documentaries on them, I can tell you right now that its not the most entertaining way of life. It's also a lot of hard work believe it or not. Most importantly, they don't have access to many opportunities, or medical services, so they're ill a lot of the time: but some prefer that, and good on them.

See Aristotle and Ayn Rand on the other moral codes I was referring to.

Last edited by VeeDDzz`; 10-30-2014 at 11:20 PM.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaaynde
It's basically a BS statement. If you really have a will, it's free. Otherwise it's not a will. Begs the question.

Is there a will? Is there freedom? Much better.
Freedom from what?

I am quite certain that I have will (read: wants, needs, preferences, desires). I am quite certain that it isn't free to willy-nilly decide that I want to eat a yucky sandwich.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
(4) If behaving morally came with no psychological rewards, it would be difficult to justify on a purely intellectual basis: for examples refer to 'sociopaths'.
Mostly, behaving nicely comes with external rewards. We (non-sociopaths) are generally optimized for repeated/iterated interactions.

This is why we tip the wait staff when traveling even though it is -ev.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
Freedom from what?
Freedom from the laws of physics: which turns out to be impossible. So we narrow it down to freedom from genetic influences: which also turns out to be impossible. So we narrow it down to freedom from environmental influences (the ones that affect our decision-making heuristics): which also turns out to be impossible. So we narrow it down to freedom from physical or emotional coercion and voila! we arrive at free-will.

Last edited by VeeDDzz`; 10-31-2014 at 02:00 AM.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 02:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
"I am what others tell me I am" and never myself.
You are yourself. I am myself. That other guy over there is himself. It is a numerically unique sort of thing.

I don't particularly mind if you think you are a Chihuahua named Kenneth.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
You are yourself. I am myself. That other guy over there is himself. It is a numerically unique sort of thing.

I don't particularly mind if you think you are a Chihuahua named Kenneth.
I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a employee etc...but none of those things are me. At best they are roles I play to get along with other people.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a employee etc...but none of those things are me. At best they are roles I play to get along with other people.
So?
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm an employee...
I have a similar problem:


I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint

And yet, despite all of this, I do not feel ashamed.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
Freedom from the laws of physics: which turns out to be impossible. So we narrow it down to freedom from genetic influences: which also turns out to be impossible. So we narrow it down to freedom from environmental influences (the ones that affect our decision-making heuristics): which also turns out to be impossible. So we narrow it down to freedom from physical or emotional coercion and voila! we arrive at free-will.
You would probably enjoy Shopenhauer.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a employee etc...but none of those things are me. At best they are roles I play to get along with other people.
The are partly you. Or should be.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote
10-31-2014 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a employee etc...but none of those things are me. At best they are roles I play to get along with other people.
I've felt this way before, for much of my young life actually. I think it means you're kind, that you want to be what others expect you to be. Just realize most of us don't really know what we expect. If you act a little more like an individual than just a role, it may raise a few eyebrows and ruffle a few feathers, but leave it to them to do their own grooming, unless you're a barber too, lol.
Ethics, morality and hard determinism Quote

      
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