So I am on holiday in mexico and obviously upset by pokerstars changes and all my efforts for the last 6 months now been for nothing i decided to go for a long walk.

along the beech i noticed something that put things in perspective I saw a man with only one arm and a small stump on the other side clearly homeless walking along the beech collecting cans. he had a pretty big bag full to and this must have been difficult to carry and pick up other cans with only one arm.

I mean when you see the homeless people in the UK you know many of them are not actually homeless, that many just do drugs and buy booze, and get more in handouts in a week then most people make in a month or two.

I never really felt guilty about not giving anything to them for that reason.

This scenario was different though this man was not begging for any money he was out trying to make the best of his situation however dire it may be. He wasn't asking anyone for anything or expecting anything from anyone.

the more cynical might allege it been a stunt to illicit sympathy and get donations But I highly doubt that I mean he was moving along the beech pretty fast which made donations difficult. I literally had to run to catch up with him.

they take $ in mexico and i was just using that and I did not have any small bills on me.

So I just gave him all my change which was aprox $3.

so when i mention this to people they make out like im a good person. No I'm not. like whats $3 to me its pocket change. i mean really giving someone something that actually has value or means something to you can be admirable. giving them scraps is not.

heck why don't i put the food i don't at the restaurant into a bag and give it to him to would that make me a good person? really?

the smallest bill I had was $20 id of felt that a bit but not much really. why couldn't i of given him that. Heck in actuality I make about $600 a week from my job would it really be so much of a hit to me to give him half a week of my wages but no I can't do that because I am horrible person that needs to keep it to buy crappy souvenirs that are probably made in china, cigars that will give me cancer and alcohol that will kill my brain cells.

feeling pretty scummy was wondering what other people thought.

At least you're not taking more in handouts in a week than most people make in a month or two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5isLsGItOs

I would have given him all $23 (if not asked and 3 if i was asked lol - so you are a good person for caring what could have been better but we all can improve obviously) and apologized for intruding uninvited and suggested he spent 1-2-3 day doing something for fun for himself and tried also to start a conversation if he has investigated what churches, missions exist out there that could get him started with some minimal skills he might have on a path to recover some higher standard of living and some little money or how one could help him do that. (then likely proceed to get in trouble with some semi lunatic person that doesnt even speak English lol)

What can you do with $23 in that place? Can you get a meal for a week if you have some limited access to cheap cooking parts and fire?

Lets give more meaning to this thread by asking all to suggest what one can do with $23 to get the most value out of it in that spot?

Try any rational or out of the box ideas.

I think $23 buys you a new set of cheap but clean pants and a shirt in Mexico and you can clean up and go visit a center that helps people with some possible skills to get assistance by doing something (some errant or garden work until better spots appeared) for that center (eg a church if you can do some work for them).

$23 may (in US) buy you a cheap pan, 1+1 big bags of rice and beans, 1 big onion , 12 eggs bought in different days, 1 loaf bread , 1 small bag of potatoes, 1 kg spaghetti, enough to have some cheap meals for a week. You may borrow some salt, pepper and oil from restaurant left overs too if you ask anyone kindly explaining your condition. Or you may ask in a supermarket what they do with recently expired food. (most things are ok even 5 days after expiration and some others even weeks but people wont buy them of course, i wonder what eg safeway does with them? they must have a ton of losses each week and expired salads, groceries, fruit, milk, eggs, even slightly very recently broken eggs etc all actually pretty good to consume right away with minimal clean up care and of course nobody wanting them. They likely have some centers they work with, that a homeless person can get help or participate in the operation for others and get free services for that.)

What food would you buy to last some time with $23 if you can assume you had access to fire, water and free plastic plates, and a pan but no refrigeration?

How do you impact the best your condition if you were homeless in that spot if someone gave you $23?


I think a homeless person requires only minimal help and solid advice to get back on path to recovery no matter how ugly things are even the addicted ones. Unfortunately i suspect most of them have resigned enough to not care anymore to recover anything and they would return back to being homeless eventually, but it shouldnt be like that, its possible to recover from anything with proper help and attitude and a minimal set of friends that do not even give you any money or anything other than elementary free help and sense of dignity/importance/value.

You gave him $3 when you were entitled to give him no money at all. Shows you care for others a bit. Often this is called being a good person. There are many other ways of showing you care for others though.

The $20-$23 is a possibility. But the "goodness" of the act doesn't increase proportionally with the sum.

Remember though that people can have very serious problems you can't spot from the outside like the arms in this case.

You should join the Salvation Army.

Yeah because maybe he'd find you patronizing.

So a guy that most of society (according to my experience) does its best to keep at distance and avoid, would find patronizing someone offering contact, who the first thing he did was to apologize for intruding and who gave him apparently all the change money he had with himself and showed genuine interest in their hard life and what means of help existed available for that person. How many people talk to these guys and recognize their tough life and still offer conviction that yes something better can happen without offering the slightest criticism.

That person can simply reject the money and tell me he is ok with his life plan and thank me anyway and maybe suggest someone else nearby that could use it. Only a real loser would find my gesture offensive by the way. They may be more offended with $3 though or felt even worse inside. With 23 a guy can indeed take a break 1-2 days and spend the time to himself or get a decent meal or buy something he never expected. Its how you approach and give the money that makes the difference. You may even ask for permission. Certainly all this is better than the alternative of ignoring and avoiding, that 95% of people he sees every day do in his proximity.

No, more the suggesting he do something fun for himself, and the knowing what's best for others attitude.

Yes because picking up cans is better than what i suggested making my suggestion a stupid snobbish insulting presumptuous attack on his nobility and yours and his lifestyle lol. Great. I took the thread as a chance to offer my ideas how if i found myself in such miserable spot and someone gave me 23 i would buy a couple clean cloth pieces and go ask for help offering some free skills/work in returns to any group of people that do some organized service to the community, churches, or other centers. Every person no matter how bad the situation can always offer something in return for a bit of help and access to other opportunities. The aluminum cans will not do that for you. 5c per can takes ~500 cans to get to $23. GL with that! You just gave this guy a free day or 2 to take a break possibly!

Well that is a little presumptuous, don't you think?

i dont consider $20 to be small bill but that was smallest bill i had on me. if others call that a small bill then fair enough.

i later found out that a can collector in mexico makes about 17 peso a day which is $1.50 aprox.

I don't know if the same help is available in mexico that would be in the US.

What part? The can collecting part is not miserable when you have 1 hand left and it takes 500 cans to collect 2-3 hours worth of minimum wage income (or 5-6 in Mexico?) ? Where will you find 500 cans per 3 hours and how much more effort-energy used that probably exceeds the energy you get from a basic meal? The fighting effort to try with 1 hand is not at all miserable though.

The choice however may be if, as typically is the case, other choices exist that are better. For example you water or take care of a garden and you get paid still nothing but enough to eat and you are in a better environment too. If you want to identify personal viewpoint of things with presumptuous then all positions we take are presumptuous to a degree when you have imperfect information. Welcome to the world. The question now becomes how close to the estimate we fall typically or if it helps better to not offer opinion in a quest of improving things. Have you tried to imagine yourself picking 500 cans? Ask yourself where you will go for example to do that without targeting places/bins that people put cans to be recycled of course since that is kind of stealing.

Sure. I'd say that someone with experience of living on the streets is qualified to have an opinion about what it's actually like, and that those that don't are talking bull****.

Are you considering what i say bs? Do you find me lacking experience?

You don't qualify for a horrible person trophy.

Given that your parents were able to afford getting you a math tutor, you had access to undergraduate and graduate school and that you presumably had access to a plane ticket to arrive in the US, yes. You were life-dealt a royal flush. If you aren't incredibly wealthy by now, you ought be asking yourself where you went wrong in playing your hand.

No, not horrible so far, but some very key significant information is missing that would change everything. Now think very carefully. Did you happen to mention the name of any insects during this experience or when telling anyone about it ?

(don't worry if don't understand this)

Sometimes you guys appear so clueless about me that its amazing. How the f do any of you know what path i had in life?

Exactly why cant i have had the experience for example at very young age to be taking nails out of wood (to frame cement, hold things in temporary structures etc) that workers left while building a home in order to collect them and using a hammer to straighten them up with some repeated effort, resulting in nails that could be used again. How about collecting and cleaning unbroken used bricks (from demolished walls etc) using hammers and chisels. How about cutting flat surface stones to be used for flooring. Yes why cant i have had experience with work that relates to trying to recover value from items and the effort it takes for so little gain (to compare with the endless effort for little gain that picking cans is). Why couldnt i have lived in my youth near a very poor family with many kids i was watching every time i was walking to school. Why cant i have visited people all over the world in tough spots later? How many homeless people you think one sees in main cities in California? And do you think that even if a young guy visits a strip joint, tits and ass is the only thing he is paying attention to?

Real men can walk in all places and experience all levels of society both in their mind because they matter as situations and ideas and for real up close all their lives from young age. You learn empathy real nicely when young if parents cared about details to sensibly expose you to all scales of greatness and struggle. Then its up to you to continue to care and imagine a better world where the guy is paid by society to collect the cans (not for the 0.05 recovery but for cleaning the place from other losers that didnt care for it) if he wants and gets also a prosthetic hand and can do something else of value and suffer less in his life knowing someone cares out there even if his luck didnt.

I did all of those things as well, masque. The straightening out nails thing is pretty funny.

Having done some physical labor doesn't approach in any way at all being disadvantaged or homeless. Having seen poor people doesn't approach being poor.

None of that means that you can't have empathy. It does mean that you don't have the right to think for a second that you'd have done even an iota better given someone else's life.

It is naive to take such position as it is easily countered by experience (better experience and skills or attitude given same tough condition = different result often better for the more resourceful, optimistic, educated , "strong" person. Also exactly how many times has someone involved in sciences been frustrated and unable to solve something all their lives to have developed the proper fighting , never give up attitude? Can you try like every day? Doesnt this present an asset that relates to adversity? Not to mention that this is the entire point of education to begin with, to provide a person a better chance under similar tough conditions.)

Its not about physical labor either. Although an experienced person can extrapolate their own less extended-more brief (but in character forming youth era) less intensive experience to relate to the others still significantly. How about even having parents that lived in tough conditions as kids and you have the chance all your life to observe their nature and the impact of their experiences? Here it was about relating to the concept of value recovery from a process of collecting used items and in fact its more elaborate than picking up cans, albeit this guy is 1 armed and not a kid. It was about the process. Also its kind of ridiculous to think someone that spends his life thinking things they cant see, cannot do that also for people. Has an author for example lived the lives of all his book's characters or is he/she a person with significant life experience, better empathy and attention to detail and observing caring nature plus capacity to imagine perspectives with less errors than an untrained person. I am not relating this to myself necessarily as example but i use it to counter the argument that one cannot have a very good idea even without having lived the exact same life.

Besides exactly what is it that was said by me that ignited all this reaction?

Of course and every person that has a view of the world that belongs to them can claim how they would react if they were at this spot if they are in general truthful, consistent, reliable people. And of course it is possible to argue that even that guy may have reacted differently if he had different information. Very often the solution to problems is as easy as a friend telling you something you didnt know or thought or doing something for you behind your back that benefits the situation by opening an opportunity. You can do that for a little kid that you bring them proper books/toys as gifts or even a top scientist that you bring to their attention a problem they can solve and start a process of discovery, only they can deliver at that period, founded on that simple initial victory, that initial opening horizon...

It all goes back to how a society that cares deeper than ours can go further even if it never fully removes completely a tough outcome. And that was the only message here. Very often people who find themselves in tough spots do so because they were never provided with a network of friends and family that cared enough to not abandon them to their tough luck and unique problems. A community that cares more has fewer social problems like poverty and social depression manifested as being homeless often. A community that respects all members and offers multiple chances is a less hostile, atrocious place. And it takes the OP's starting examining thoughts to begin creating that place.

arrest this man

Only responding due to lobsterrangoon bumping this...

Yes. You are naïve. You get to play for a living.

You seem to think that effort has something to do with what we ought pay you. Give me the products of your labor - I care not a whit about the effort you put into it. No one else, on the face of the earth, cares that you put effort in. Either you have produced something that benefits us, or you don't deserve food or shelter from us.

When you straightened out a nail, we had a nail. If you have something else to show us, please do.

I do. I believe that if we insist on having an economic system wherein people are compensated for work, compensation should be based on effort alone, not production, to the extent we can figure out how to measure that. I don't think the more productive person "deserves" or should receive any more than the hard-working but unproductive person.

It has nothing to do with "deserving."

My point is that while you said no one thinks how hard someone works should determine compensation, you're wrong, some of us do think that, and think that whether someone produces value for others should be irrelevant.

(Actually, I'd prefer that there be no compensation at all, but this is in my compromise society that still cares at least a little bit about aggregate productivity.)

You don't get to eat if there is no compensation. That seems more important than any idealism.

And, no, if you don't give people anything based on their effort, then you don't count as 'caring' about compensating hard work.

A proper strong society gives both value to effort and the results in a balanced manner that is not punishing to bad luck or other situations where the intention was reasonably strong and good but it failed to deliver big. To know that enables one to be happier in their efforts (more secure). It also makes the competition between people less malicious (cutthroat) (they do not have to do close to whatever it takes so to speak as often). The incentive to not fail exists but also the confidence you will not suffer terrible outcomes and loss of basic minimum standards of living (like those lost by the homeless today that may not even have a secure meal every day). Also to my understanding a fraction of the population that doesnt work or are homeless is a loss for society. Most of those people would be happy to know something was always available to them that fits their skills and capabilities/education/experience etc. It also adds personal value to the individual to feel useful somewhere.

The essential cost to house a person and feed them every day shouldn't exceed by a lot the cost of food and maintenance of that home. That maintenance is probably less than $2000 per year and the food less than $4 per day. Elementary needs like cloths and some minimal entertainment add only another 1-2k. So i say each person to not be homeless will cost less than 5-6k per year if properly designed. It is still of course an existence in poverty but with some dignity. Additionally the homeless can have as job to help with the maintenance of the homes other prior homeless people are now living. They can also produce work in other areas that recovers the cost of maintaining their status. So you get an entire community of previously abandoned people that now get what they need to not be homeless and they also produce the work for the system that enables that existence without further cost to society (and far less effort from them to survive daily). Any additional output now of that system if optimized proves the idea not only humane but beneficial to society and sustainable. We can use that profit to improve the conditions these people live and the output of their job, offer them more opportunities for creative work as well and even recover the initial cost of the infrastructure that was originally provided with only requirement to maintain it.

Building a home for "free" eventually is possible. The cost must be less than 50k to build a very basic small home of 75m^2 ($250k for a good home is reasonable cost). You can build a home in an undeveloped community that is also a net energy producer due to solar technology. Each home can easily have an area of at least 75m^2. That offers a roof of similar size. The energy production for such home is over $6k per year. It pays for its own maintenance and food of the occupant. It recovers the cost to develop it within 20 years. You can also introduce a local greenhouse per square in that neighborhood or a mini farm which can provide food to the community and a number of jobs to maintain it (you do the math and see how much food 100x100=10000m^2 can produce using fruits, vegetables, potatoes, beans, tomatoes and a few chickens and maybe some goats too for milk. Each chicken has an egg every day and a goat produces milk for several people too. See how many people/hours per day it takes to maintain that mini farm environment with little work each that is better than picking cans or walking in the streets all day. The farm can also have flowers eg roses or excess fruit it sells in a local market).

A person that finds refuge in such community is offered the chance to recover from their problems and at some future point leave the community and return to a more advanced quality of life environment. Also people in that community are offered some training to help expand that community and build new homes even working for free essentially (or for future ownership of the project) to enable that way new homeless people to be incorporated. A homeless person that needs medical care receives it also (eg mental problems or other personality disorders that can be treated) by the community as it gets stronger. It not impossible that members of that community go on to become nurses or doctors themselves and return the help to the community on part time assistance in the future. If a homeless person cannot maintain their status to work for living there and returns to bad habits and gives up etc then some help will be provided initially to recover them and if they resist they will be removed from the community (whatever homeless again so be it, nobody lives there for completely free) and introduced again in the future only if they cooperate with the minimal work on their part that staying there requires.

Any advanced society can afford to design such solution to its problem of homeless people. A well designed project like that eventually must be able to pay for itself and recover these people to the community as productive happy members again when they "graduate" out of that sheltered/spartan environment.