Are we the masters of our own fate, or is it a feel-good fantasy created by those who can't accept that we don't really have control?

Having read on this subject, and having been a determinist before I even knew it to be an actual philosophy, I haven't found any reasons for the decisions we make and the actions we take outside of a purely self-interested motive. Being entirely self-interested, everything we think and do is ultimately towards the end of improving our own peace of mind. We reach the decisions to do the things we do based on our DNA and our environment (past experiences + current situation at time of decision). So our brains unconsciously - when not consciously - select the action that is likely to bring us the most satisfying result. If we are always doing the thing that we think will bring us the most happiness, doesn't it make our decision inevitable?

Some counter that we may do things for selfless reasons, but I believe this to just be on the surface. We may give money to charity or help a friend move, but is it truly selfless? Surely there is some ulterior (though not necessarily sinister) motive for these actions. It may be that the "selfless" acts assuage feelings of guilt or give us a good feeling in return. Opting for selflessness is sometimes due the shame of denying a beggar on the street, the feeling of obligation to help a friend out, and/or the expectation of future returns for our generosity.

Consider the possibility of an all-knowing god. Many believe this to be an absolute fact, though I am not among them. If you accept that there is an omniscient force that knows literally everything, it surely knows the future as well as the present. If god knows that you will "choose" to do X on day Y, how could you do differently? If a computer could calculate all the factors and laws in the universe, including how every person thinks, couldn't it put everything together and spit out an accurate prediction of the future. If something can be predicted with certainty, was it the result of a persons free will.

I have much more I'd like to say on this subject. Please discuss.

The question is irrelevant.

DUCY?

Because however we answer it, the truth remains the same? If so, I disagree.

When you scratch yourself, where does the impuls come from?

If you have free will or don't have free will, how does it impact your actions? And if you could know whether you had free will or not, what would/could this knowledge change?

(Answer key: a - It doesn't. b - Nothing.)

Many people take actions based on their belief that free will exists. In particular, they are more apt to judge and attack people on this basis, and they view physical and empirical explanations as "foolish."

I agree that free will doesn't actually have any implications whatsoever - it would be indistinguishable from randomness, and the only way to recognize it would be to identify patterns and coincidences emerging from basic physical phenomena. It's meaningless. This is actually the strongest argument against free will - it doesn't explain anything we observe, and nothing we observe (other than qualia) necessitates invoking it.

But as long as people postulate that it is meaningful and should guide our actions (particularly with regard to science, psychotherapy, and the justice system), the belief in free will can be extremely harmful.

A) Interesting proposition. I don't see why anyone with free will would choose to act in a way inconsistent with achieving his own ends. Fortunately, determinism drives us to pursue desirable ends. Evolution IMO.

B) Agreed, and I'm not posting this because I'm trying to change people minds. I'm encouraging discussion as I find this a very interesting topic. This post is a result of factors beyond my control. Like everything else I do, it's a result of my DNA and my environment. It was inevitable before I was even born. Don't blame me.

IMO the vast majority of people believe in free will because they can't accept that they're living their lives without control over them. Of course, they had no choice but to believe as they do.

I agree that the belief in free will is especially harmful in the way we deal with justice and criminal punishment. Certain sick and violent people have to be removed from society, but it does no good to make them suffer.

I find it interesting that even though I strongly believe in this philosophy, I still experience feelings of anger, retribution, blame, etc, even though i don't logically believe these feelings to be warranted. Maybe the need to place blame and project moral culpability on others is necessary for mental health.

As I'm more acquainted with the philosophical side of determinism than the hard science, could you or others share your thoughts on the uncertainty principle? It is held by some as a popular counter to determinism. Does the fact that we can't accurately measure both the position and velocity of a subatomic particle without the other changing mean that there is randomness in the universe? IMO the fact that humanity can't measure something has no bearing on the theoretical possibility of it being measurable. It seems that eventually everything deemed inexplainable or random comes to be measured and quantified.

I have just been doing this in my Human Biology course. This is how I understood it.

The impulse usually starts with something (e.g. flea) triggering nerve impulses on the skin.

An electrical impulse travels along the nerve until it reaches the spinal cord. Here the impulse typically splits.

A reflex impulse travels back through the peripheral nervous system, which cause some reflex action. Start a scratching motion or move the limb or something.

The second part of the impulse travels up the spinal cord, when it enters the brain it splits again.

One part of the impulse travels into the thalamus where it will alert the mind to what has happened maybe waking the individual up.

The second part of the impulse goes to the somatosensory cortex which appears to be some form of message board with an area corresponding to each part of the body. A blinking light appears above the sign saying left knee (or wherever the flea bit you). The reasoning part of your brain (might) kick in here. This is when it gets a little confused, but the end result will typically be to continue the scratching motion or arrest it. No action here might have you scratching yourself for a while before noticing what your doing.

All pieces of string and stickytack.

I don't think there's anything wrong with placing blame, but I think it's important to recognize the context. It's a feeling, it's not reality. Many people seem very disturbed by this, but it's the truth. Our feelings represent ingrained responses to stimuli, not reality (not even to the extent of our senses, which are themselves easy to trick). I think it's foolish and cruel to base a justice system on feelings - even in those civilized cases where it works (for the most part).

While I don't think the uncertainty principle refutes causation, I think other experiments do. I'm not familiar with all of them, but I believe experiments measuring the states of different particles showed random results. Work done on exactly "how random" seems to rule out many pseudo-random processes, but that's way over my head. I don't much care - if the universe appears random from our perspective, then it might as well be. We have to model it using a probabilistic approach. And I consider probabilistic determinism a form of determinism, so in that sense I don't think there's a problem.

Excellent response.

So how can we relate this understanding to the 'fate' question of the OP?

Calling free will a feel a good fantasy is a little harsh.

It’s an interregnal part of the human psyche. One of the most amazing evolutionary developments ever. The ability for an organism to believe that it is able to control its own actions. Motivation, what an advantage it gives and individual.

Any human without this ‘feel good fantasy’ should probably be considered as mentally impaired. It’s an illusion but its essential for our well being to be suckered in by it.

There are entire cultures without free will.

It's learned, it's not an intrinsic part of the human psyche. You place a lot of value on it because you were raised in a culture that places a lot of value on it.

I was considering individuals not cultures.

I mean, there are cultures where no individual reports the experience of free will. Languages where there is no "free will."

Free will isn't intrinsic like happiness. Every language has a word for "happiness," some have many. Every culture acknowledges happiness. You can call a person who doesn't experience happiness deficient if you want, because the experience of happiness is a universal human quality. The experience of free will is not.