It's a poor stew that has no flavor. Beware the recipe that takes the life out of living.


PairTheBoard

Well, my current belief (fragile belief.. my mind is basically a broken mirror) is that consciousness is eternal;
consciousness is both immanent and "transcendental" (beyond space-time) to all of existence.

*** I don't adhere to any specific religion, but here are some ideas that I find interesting from Hinduism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

"Turiya is the background that underlies and transcends the three common states of consciousness. The three common states of consciousness are: waking consciousness, dreaming, and dreamless sleep."

"I am of the nature of consciousness.
I am made of consciousness and bliss.
I am nondual, pure in form, absolute knowledge, absolute love.
I am changeless, devoid of desire or anger, I am detached.
I am One Essence, unlimitedness, utter consciousness.
I am boundless Bliss, existence and transcendent Bliss.
I am the Atman (Self), that revels in itself.
I am the Sacchidananda that is eternal, enlightened and pure."

"The True Self is Brahman"

*** And this "formless, timeless and universal consciousness of I Am" is what I believe Jesus was referring to when he said "before abraham was, I Am" and
"I Am the way, the truth, and the life" and "the kingdom of heaven is within you" and "lose yourself to find yourself".

And also Moses when he said, "I Am That I Am... This is My name forever" or when it was said, "Be still and know that I Am God".

(I don't believe in a personal God; "God" to me simply means this timeless and universal consciousness which is the innermost center of everyone's consciousness.
This is why I didn't post this thread in the theology forum, because I wanted this to be less about theology and more about psychology... but the deeper we go the harder it is to make a distinction, imho).

*** From Buddhism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathāgatagarbha_Sūtra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

"Buddha reveals how inside each person's being there exists a great Buddhic "treasure that is eternal and unchanging". This is no less than the indwelling Buddha himself."

"Buddhahood is thus taught to be the timeless, virtue-filled Real (although as yet unrecognised as such by the deluded being), present inside the mind of every sentient being from the beginningless beginning. Its disclosure to direct perception, however, depends on inner spiritual purification and purgation of the superficial obscurations which conceal it from view."

"What is the Buddha? He is one who is eternal and unchanging. He is beyond the human notion of "is" or "is-not".

"...the inherent nature that exists in all beings. Enlightenment is a process of uncovering this inherent nature … The Buddha-nature is identical with transcendental reality. The unity of the Buddha with everything that exists".

*** From Zen:

"If you want to realize the truth,
then hold no opinions for or against anything."

"As vast as infinite space,
it is perfect and lacks nothing.
Indeed, it is due to your grasping and repelling
That you do not see things as they are."

"Those who do not understand the Way
will assert or deny the reality of things.
Deny the reality of things, you miss its deeper reality;
Assert the reality of things, you miss the emptiness of all things."

"The more you think about it,
the further you are from the truth.
Cease all thinking,
and there is nothing that will not be revealed to you."

"The Truth is beyond time and space,
one instant is eternity.
Not here, not therebut
everywhere always right before your eyes."

"All is void, clear, and self-illuminating,
with no need to exert the mind.
Here thinking, feeling, knowledge, and imagination
are of no value."

"Words! Words!
The Way is beyond language,
Words never could, can not now, and never will describe the Way."

*** From Taoism:
"The Tao is infinite, eternal.
Why is it eternal?
It was never born;
thus it can never die.
Why is it infinite?
It has no desires for itself;
thus it is present for all beings."

"Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can’t know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom."

"The Tao is ungraspable.
How can her mind be at one with it?
Because she doesn’t cling to ideas."

"Since before time and space were,
the Tao is.
It is beyond 'is' and 'is not'.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see."

*** From Tibetan Vajrayana:
"I Am the existential ground of
all, and the root of all things is nothing else but one Self ... I am the place in which all existing things abide."

"What is known as the revealed Buddha is this evidence of My own being. Because it has the centre it is the Self of everything. As it does not need any deeds, it is the Buddha since the beginning. As it is free of striving and achieving, it is since the beginning known as great. The Great Self is known as the Great Buddha. This evidence which is unborn and non-conceptual is the dimension of Reality".

"This great self-perfected bliss will intuitively be understood by the Self which is incomparable pristine Awareness."

"This self-arising fundamental substance, not produced by causes and conditions, governs all things and gives life to all things."

Now, please, cut me into pieces!

The old woman was chopping wood and carrying water when she realized perfect enlightenment, after which she was chopping wood and carrying water.

- Zen Koan




PairTheBoard

IF you were worried before enlightenment and your enlightenment doesn't involve facing worry, you'll be worried after enlightenment.

Yes, "obviously"; "The desire to be desireless/enlightened is just another desire, etc".

But is this something you have just heard/read or is this something you have truly realized and integrated into your life? (I haven't).

My problem is that I am trying too hard, but even though I intellectually know that I am trying too hard this only leads to me "trying not to try" which is just "trying standing on its head".

"When you try to stop motion to achieve quietude,
the very effort fills you with activity"
- Zen Master, Seng-ts’an

I have yet to achieve Bukowski-mode

I don't think so, that is , cut you to pieces ; you asked of the nature of "beauty' and that's what it is, what you've presented. It's just fine and of the poetic truths to which we all can relate to and thank you.

As a westerner I see what is the forms of the East to the times of the Vedas and Vedanta philosophy, even to the Tao of ancient China and there is one thing not evident in all these approaches; the human "I" or "Ego" or human personality.

You make mention of the "I Am" and relate it to Moses, et. al whereas in the East the suppression of the "I" or "Ego" is noticeably present even up to the Great Buddha, the apotheosis of the East or better yet the culmination of this Eastern aesthetic.

The East, which is the source of our religious, denies the "I" and this is manifested by the mystery centers, for example, in which the initiand is placed into a trance state, surrounded by the hierophant and 12 acolytes and through their powers he enters into that world you spoke of , that of deep sleep . He brings happenings to the earthly which in a sense is layed upon him in a trance but is able through a perceptive memory of that state to offer wisdom and knowledge.

The ancients knew that the "Ego" or "I" of man was not able to enter into the so called higher worlds and would in fact be maddened by this state if it were not suppressed by the actions of the priestly powers within the temple. And so the newly initiated did this by an ego suppression.

The West, to the contrary, is everywhere involved with the "Ego" and in the forming of personality . This doesn't mean that the ancient Indian was incorrect but we have the evolution of the human soul to wit, that the "Ego" was released from a natural suppression at about 2100 years ago and entry into the worlds of the Vedas can now be accomplished in "full consciousness" without the trance state.

In the West we speak of the individual man even to our political systems. Democracy is presented by the West with all of its faults for it is the political system of the individual man. A monarchy may be more efficient, so to speak, even a dictatorship , or others vying for hegemony but the democratic process relates primarily to the individual even if we do not vote as the ancient city state of Athens, which of course, was purer in form.

Many relate to the "Ego" as to the words "egocentric". or "egotistical" or "egoistic", which have the tinge of negativity attached and in some present day religious systems we can see the political/religious suppression of the "Ego" . Many forgot or denied that the human soul was to gain "knowledge of good and evil" and in this the "Ego" or "I" of Man reigns.

These, not so clear thinkers, call the "Ego"evil or some such epithet which is no more than a carry over from ancient times but concepts out of place which do not fit the present. This is the change from East to West in which the human soul and spirit (better known as the "Ego") gain an individuality so that in the metamorphosis of Man and his Earth we see a many colored humanity, each to his own color, living within a new community of Men each to his particular moral tone, the song of a moral tonality of Man.

The "Ego" works the good and evil and progresses from life to life ever on route to the individuality, or personality, specific to the each of us.

To be clear, the "Ego" is as real as your human body et,al and the "real" knowledge we seek is the "knowledge of man", and of course another story. Written on the ancient temples "Oh Man, Know Thou Thyself". Man should be included in our scientific meanderings.

You're right, it should have been posted in the other forum but hey, give it a good one.

Actually, I like Sam Cooke better than the long winded tomes , just a wow. Thanx

Honestly, another wow.

Just Physics and Math. Its all you need! Come on now how hard is to get this basic conclusion? There is nothing else out there other than more new math and physics. Nothing ELSE.

We must know, we will know.

The short answer is "no." One can find unpleasantness in a sharp stick to the eye. One desires to not take a sharp stick to the eye because the experience is unpleasant, not the other way around.

What is true is that excessive rumination on the unpleasantness of a sharp stick to the eye adds unnecessary suffering. One should ponder sharp sticks to the eye only to the extent that such ponderings reduce the likelihood of taking a sharp stick to the eye.

I haven't read all the replies in this thread. I think if we replace the word "desire" with the word "hope", I like it a lot more.

In poker, hope kills.

Hope runs the imagination function of the mind and is based on dissatisfaction with reality. It burns energy but does no good. This is quite different from having goals, not that having goals means we are satisfied with reality but hope causes our minds to constantly churn because we are imagining a better future while, if one has a goal, the goal can be totally forgotten while the plan to achieve that goal is executed. This allows one to live in the moment and enjoy the reality of his life in the moment rather than be distracted and distressed by the deficiencies of that moment. Plus, having goals implies plans and practices to achieve those goals while hope does zilch.

Desire is not necessarily future-based so we can experience deficiency and desire like, to eat when hungry, and I can't find any suffering caused by this particular desire. However, hoping to own a farm(as a response to hunger) probably causes suffering by creating resentment to current reality even after we've satisfied our hunger.

I suppose we can refine our definition of desire so that it isn't mealy "wanting" but something more like hope; not merely a physiological impulse but a plan to achieve. I would focus on the imagination churning on the hope which causes us to live in our heads with resentment rather than in reality with something more pleasant.

Desire is life and arises naturally. Attachment is the root of suffering. Seeing that life arises naturally and spontaneously and is ever changing, enlightenment is simply the total acceptance of that.

What you call "attachment" is what I meant with "desire", and what you
call "desire" is what I would call "life-energy". But beyond semantics,
I agree with your view completely.

But... Have you really accepted This, or is your understanding still just intellectual (like it is for me)?
Are you Enlightened? If not, what is blocking you?

Sure, it's semantics but when you interpret something wrong you approach it wrong. Desire is natural and ok to have but when you think of desire as attachment then you think of it as something bad that must be gotten rid of. You can't rid yourself of desire, you can only detach from it and watch it rise and fall within you.

Also what we are talking about as enlightenment is a natural state. It's not something to have or understand as much as a way of being. The person that thinks he/she exists realizes many things they understand along this process but true enlightenment doesn't require the existence of said persona to continue on with daily tasks and activities.

Have I fully accepted this and become fully enlightened? No, I've just glimpsed it at various times in "my life" for various amounts of time. What's blocking me? Attachment. Who cares tho, the whole process unfolds naturally as well, there's nothing to achieve or obtain in a dream, how is this any different?

I am starting to realize more and more that this non-attached, non-resisting, and non-judging Watching/Witnessing is the Key. A Witnessing that is not for or against anything, but simply "let's everything come, let's everything be, and let's everything go" -- unconditionally.


Yes, I also believe/have glimpsed that "Enlightenment" is the original and timeless nature. I believe the reason for us (seemingly) losing this Original State is identifying with specific desires which causes us to believe we are a certain "self/ego", which then causes to us to fear the death of this "self-form". I believe the key to Liberation is that by Witnessing/Watching these desires come and go (without attaching or avoiding), realize that while our Timeless State is within all coming and going it is also beyond it.

For me personally, I feel that this is potentially an attitude that one is using to protect ones ego from having its dream shattered. The ego will do and believe anything to stop itself from realizing its own Emptiness!
However, I also believe that it is very much possible to become attached to the idea of enlightenment (like I am) and begin to "try too hard".

What I would guess happened to the Buddha (among other "enlightened beings") is that after those years of constant search and meditation he eventually reached the absolute maximum of "trying too hard" -- a kind of boiling point -- and from there was able to drop it and "stop trying" and "stop caring about attaining". But I believe that "absolute maximum of trying" is necessary before one "arrives at non-attainment".

You say key, I say absolute. It's the space in which everything in "reality" takes place, it all arises from and falls back into this absolute space. Attempts to hold onto these appearances through concepts, ideas, and memories is futile despite the fact it can be fun or painful or exciting or scary. It all runs its course eventually anyway, the process does itself.

*Bows with folded hands*

With respect to Buddhism he saw the world as "all is suffering". Guatama Buddha was brought up in the household of King Suddhodana all he saw in his household was everything which can ennoble human life.

"Then we are told how one day, when he was twenty-nine years of age, he left the palace, and for the first time in his life was confronted by sorrow and pain and all the dark shadows of existence. It is described how he met an old, old man whose life was ebbing away, and above all how he saw a corpse. And it dawned upon him that life must after all be utterly different from all that he had experienced in the palace, where he had known nothing but joy, where disease and death had never come near him, and where he had learned to believe that life could never ebb away nor cease. And now he discovered that life embraced both pain and sorrow."

He had seen life as the vale of sorrows; birth is sorrow, old age is sorrow, sickness is sorrow, death is sorrow ! ,that to which we cannot always be attached those we love is sorrow; those to whom we must be attached and do not love is sorrow.

He then sought to find the causes of sorrow and then before his soul arose "the thirst for existence". Succinctly, he then brought forth the "eightfold path" and the "four noble truths". By these actions the acolyte , through a grand effort, gains nirvana and leaves the "wheel of life" in order to not reincarnate again.

Therefore Buddhism is a 'liberation from the pain of existence" and becomes a religion of redemption.

It is apparent that man enters into joys and sorrows but what the Buddha perceived was the suffering to which our cosmic world is rooted (better word ? ) It was the call to "do not return" and the plans given in order to effect this transmission.

And so to say "is desire the root of suffering" is not exactly to the point for the "world is suffering" and the Buddha offers the man in his hole a rope in order to release from the entombment. To say that "desire is the cause of suffering' is to say that the rope is the cause of the sorrows of the man in the hole; desire and the avenue out of earthly existence are two very different entities.

A man breathes air, sings the song of light and wears the warming blanket of a benevolent providence and as in the light, air and warmth, sorrow lives on its own, distinct from the human soul .

This leads to the redemption of sorrows in which man, within the western exegesis redeems the sorrows itself and therefore he "works the earth" , not via escape, but by the historical progression of the community of men within Love. The Beiing of Love has returned to earth and manifests this living light within all men, the workers of our earthly vale.

I've sat a few Vipassana courses (10-day silent retreats, methodology rooted in Buddhism and is a purification of the mind through meditation) and found the experience indescribable. I now believe this question cannot be answered intellectually, but only through experience.

There's a lot of misconceptions in Buddhism (mostly from Western adoption trying to put their own 'twist' on Dharma) - but that's an aside. Something interesting about cultures that are prevalently Buddhist is that many families are poor, but monks are highly respected within the culture. Because of this, children/the poor are left between a choice of begging for food/crime/hustle, or perhaps pursuing a life of becoming a monk. Every morning, monks will walk through the city center and people (no matter how rich or poor) will pay them respect by putting out food for them (mostly rice) on their doorsteps. This dynamic is why you may sometimes see monks that appear fraudulent, or breaking their practice in unconventional ways (In all likelihood they are, but not all are like this and there are many that take the practice of Dharma serious)

So yeah, a teacher of Buddhism/Monk does not = Enlightenment. There are 3 things you learn and they are all connected:

Annica - the idea that all things are impermanence
Dukka - the idea that all things are suffering due to the desire to seek permanence
Anatta - the idea of the 'self' existing

These can't be intellectualized, but only found through inward observation (sometimes called presence of mind or equanimity). Desire breaks Annica. 'Not' wanting to desire, is also a desire and breaks Annica. You're taught once you have these aligned, you will no longer suffer. It's not about not feeling emotions (such as desire) and thoughts, but about not letting yourself react to them and have them pass through you and realizing the true impermanence of them all. So yeah, if you gave someone truly enlightened say a new iPhone 7 - he's not a phoney if he's curious about it or smiles. By the way, I use the word 'taught' loosely, because it's not a matter of reading books, but found through your own practice. Anecdotally, having sat a few courses and done several hundred hours of meditation, you do notice changes in your temperament/how much things affect you. It's quite remarkable and I do encourage anyone to google Vipassana if these concepts interest you. But to end this ramble, I do genuinely believe desire causes suffering..but as do many other things.

WANNA KNOW THE ANSWER OP?

Gonna have to let that go too

And we all learned a valuable lesson.