I thought there was a beginning thread with this topic. Its a good question, what happened ??

Are the brain police at work ?

Counting.

Likely from a similar place this question comes from.

Assumption.

Does everything "come from" somewhere?

Naming things.

PairTheBoard

From Nature. From existence of something. It is necessary condition for existence. Natural law is the union of Math and Physics. You cant have one without the other. There is no such thing as abstract math independent of nature (nature still creates it). You need at least this world to realize it and then you can dream all you want but the dream would have never started without at least one rich realization of the union.

Its impossible to realize a mathematical thought in abstract without a natural process involved.

I think the point is that it comes from "within Man" for the senses can , in no way, elicit geometry, algebra and arithmetic. Over a the other place I wrote a piece about the realm of the "will" or man's unconscious which is the source of mathematics, aphoristically.

Back to Masques point about being "part of nature", this is true broadly, but the question is do the above disciplines (geometry, algebra and arithmetic) fit with the external world or the realm of the senses.

The question of a "proper fit" of mathematics leads to "kinematics", trying to shorten this. One can "within one's head" do kinematics such as vectors, determinants, or similar abstracted meanderings.

The moment one does mechanics it is incumbent upon the actor to measure or weigh the effect for then the idea of "weight, or measure or ponderability" is not garnered from within but must be measured. Mechanics is an external driven reality and is not the same as kinematics nor can one "think" about weight in the same manner as the kinematic. Proof must come through measurement .

This doesn't mean that in the science of external reality mathematics should be dismissed but to realize that the movement of science will continue hand in hand with the mathematical should be realized. One example of the mathematical moving along is Lobachevsky's geometry which denies 180 degree triangles and leads to the idea that space is curved, yada, yada, as do some scientists.

Too many assumptions, too many theories, all of which are dependent upon or rigidified upon, by an abstract mathematics thus making it seem like "we can't be wrong" for the mathematics is right but it is not right. lol pragmatic science.

Where does mathematics come from ??; of course from within and comprehending the nature of the abstracted mathematical will help to understand it and its effect in the sciences and its place in nature.

https://youtu.be/l48Y_Yq_OBI

^^Came to say this also an interesting memo:
http://web.math.princeton.edu/jfnj/t...CMU/HIL39e.htm

Math is deeply entangled in nature. The elements and some energy make up our lousy 5% of the world (the rest being dark matter and dark energy), but that part is dominated by the elements, where every added proton makes, in addition to different physics, different chemistry through the balancing electrons and hence different geology and biology. So, even from the big bang there was a counting to three: Hydrogen, Helium and Lithium. 1, 2, 3.

It is the foundation of the order of nature. I think a more pertinent question is what is capable once all math is discovered?

Math is a descriptive terminology that must have set rules derived from axioms (or Plato's perfect floating numbers sailing about in the ether) to function in a coherent and consistent and useful manner. Otherwise, 2+2 = 5 or 10, or your granddad's underwear. And prime integers can be any integer you want.

And where are axioms derived from?

Throwing a net around the world and dividing up the constituents into tiny bite-sized, easy-to-understand pieces.

Naming things, by extension, comes from our inability to grasp the "whole" in which we find ourselves.

I think perhaps they are not derived but rather supposed. Which is a key insight, and still begs the same question.

Bingo.

Would one suppose mathematical axioms for reasons other than functionality (e.g., keeping track of your sheep)? And if so, which axioms?

Or counting rice etc.

I think it could be probabilistic, that humans are backwardsly perceived as intelligent for otherwise accidently having come up with useful axioms. But it still begs the recursive question since some humans are extraordinary at coming up with useful axioms from the view of propriety.

So one asks, "is there more in this regard".

And I think only those that are extraordinary can really approach the question...

yet there is a problem of conditioning. To really approach the problem and question, one needs to be free of all such conditioning.

How can one be free of such conditioning? Can one free oneself?

If you prefer, math is derived from definitions by simple fiat. And Tautology Rules the order of the day. 1=1 because it is defined that way and dividing by Zero is Verboten because Zeno says so, and you have to accept that or you will be banned from SMP and from taking any math classes. The Math Police have dictatorial powers. Don't mettle in affairs and powers that are beyond your own prosaic understanding.

How does one usurp control?

Be more so inline with nature.

"Music" is worth a plausible guess.

If numbers are universals, as well as their relations (implied by Zeno)....then the interesting question becomes: Where do they exist? They have no existence in the same sense as trees or objects in nature, nor is their existence entirely mental.

Many mathematicians speak to the realm of mathematics and have related it to the Platonic realm of ideas.

"Plato's main contributions are in philosophy, mathematics and science. ... In his Republic, Plato talks of geometrical diagrams as imperfect imitations of the perfect mathematical objects which they represent. He also contributed to logic and legal philosophy, including rhetoric."

the difficulty for some moderns is the inability to comprehend that this realm, or any supersensible realm, does not belong to the weights and measures of our present perspective. If there is a [proper look at the mathematical then one can say that the mathematician "explores" within the mathematical hierarchies and brings his findings to his fellow man.

It would be incorrect to assume that a mathematical finding could be considered an invention figured out Rube Goldberg style though it seems that way as we think.

Just as we are able to "sense" a tree we are also able to "sense" a geometry within, without ownership.

I think the problem, or one of them, is that fear arises if one believes that one loses one's personality with the garnering of thoughts which are not of our ownership. We have clear day consciousness in our thinking and in this we believe our thoughts within thinking as apposed to our feelings which are subtly unclear , much like a dream.

Not to fear, the thought world is common to all men for if each man owned his own particular thoughts or his own method of thinking there would be a chaotic cacophony of solipsists, as discussed.

When we make a treaty we use words which are the the faces of thoughts; we do not use our feelings and expect our fellow man to "feel as we do". the mathematical is something to which we can all relate for it , the realm, is within all of us but more like a state of sleep. We sleep in that realm to which mathematics is sourced. LOL on that one. Finis.

This is funny . A self operating napkin.

"Have you ever seen a Rube Goldberg machine in action? ...
The self-operating napkin is a famous cartoon that sums up what Rube Goldberg machines are all about: creating a machine (or contraption or invention or device or apparatus) that uses a chain reaction to accomplish a very simple task in a very complicated manner."

Many mathematicians are deluded.

Math and Physics come from Paradise. The only Paradise that will ever exist and matter. The paradise of happiness in logical structure and eternal love. Also known as universe. Let the rise of Complexity take us to the truth of it all.