Triumph,

When you watch the Walt/Skylar scene you think in your head that this scene is about Walt being a badass?

That scene justifies everything else that happens after it in terms of staying true to the show and having a "happy" ending for me, and it has nothing to do with being badass.

Saying he did it for himself, and owning that, is one of if not the most important things that happened this season.

That dialogue was intended solely to make Walt more likable before the end. In all fairness they kept it short and direct to the point, I think most shows would spend 5 minutes on that speech which would have made it unbearable.

You've left out two critical elements - Marie's phone call to Skyler and Walt's being there the entire time for it, and indeed Marie sounds like a caricature of the meddling ninny Walt always thought she was. Still, we see people guarding Marie's house, and yet Walt just gets right into Skyler's. But there, Walt finally owns that he is Heisenberg for himself, that it's not about something as weak as 'the family' - and now they live in a crappy apartment and Flynn has to take the bus home. Without him, their lives are worse.

I dunno, it's not the strongest argument I've made, but then again this finale is hard to make sense of.

You realize they everything in every scripted show is written so that something happens right? Or an emotion is created right? Like I really don't understand this criticism. I also think its really wrong and that wasn't the point of it at all.

The fact that skyler's life is ruined and their kids' lives are in shambles, walt jr hates him, etc, is the point. It's not being left out. That is ultimately the punishment to Walt, and that scene is about him for the first time taking ownership for all the terrible things caused by his selfish actions.

Don't get your point about Marie with relation to Walt's speech. Her life falls into the previous paragraph and the wake of walt's destruction as well.

Yeah, but it doesn't create any emotion on the viewer if it's obviously manipulative. Obviously this is as subjective as something can be in a TV show, and I've already said they did it fairly well.

It wasn't manipulative it is a natural character arc. It was earned.

I don't think it's that subjective at all since we're taking about the intentions of the storyteller and I think they are very clear in that scene and the overall arc of the character as a whole.

You choosing to read it wrongly or dismiss it out of hand is your thing.

What the hell, did I just accidentally click on the OOTV thread?

wtf triumph you're smarter than this

While watching I thought he did it for Jesse as much as anyone. Jesse got to hear that Lydia was toast too.

Walt realizing what he has done is part of the character arc, having a little speech so that the viewer can go "aww, he made emends with his wife before dying, how nice", is manipulative. There's a difference.

So you think that the show should have never addressed Walt taking responsibilities of his actions and their consequences, we should have just assumed he did? Even though we just spent 60 episodes watching him do everything but.

Actually seeing this (super important thing) happen is manipulative?

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

I was viewing the events of the episode in terms of a Walter fantasy while he's in that Volvo in New Hampshire - Marie calls Skyler to warn her that Walt is in town and that the police are all over looking for him and that she hopes Skyler is safe and that this 'arrogant assh*le isn't going to get away with this'. Boom, he's already in the room getting away with it. When Walt first chooses to cook meth, he's chosen his pride over his family's love - had Walter merely died of lung cancer as a hardworking teacher and had his family been made broke over his medical bills, they probably live a lot like they would in this scene, except that Hank is still alive and that they miss Walt and love him rather than fearing and hating him. This is just the eventual fallout of that initial choice - Walt chose himself over his family and he's realized it. Being a 'badass' means that you can't possibly get everything you want, and Walt basically says here that he doesn't regret anything - he did this because he wanted to, and too bad that you guys had to get hurt, it wasn't what I wanted, but it's what happened.

no, I think it should have been written in a way that I as a viewer didn't think to myself that was what they were doing. How? If I knew that I would be writing for tv, but BB writers have done it before, with Jesse for example, and did it much better than this.

I realize you won't be happy about this line of argument, so you can save the outrage

I've criticized the show plenty for unrealistic contrivances to move the plot forward. But man, FH and Triumph are making some horrible posts.

The finale was perfect for what the show was. If you don't like that, then I don't know why you were even watching it. That has been what the show is for 5 seasons. Why the hell would you be expecting any different?

I mean, did Triumph really just say he would have preferred if the entire episode ended up being a dream??? Amazing

A critic from the new yorker has made the same point as triumph nearly word for word. I actually don't disagree. A final shot of freezing Walt being pulled from the car in new Hampshire by cops would have been totally fine, quite poignant, and hurt a lot of butts.

But that isn't what happened, and what happened was still sweet.

Ignoring the point that you don't even believe it was a fantasy (you said so earlier iirc), you know no one else is discussing the scene in that context right?
I think the fantasy argument is interesting (but obviously not what's going on).

I think that even in the context of this being walt's fantasy this is a pretty absurd viewing of the scene where Walt visits Skylar.

Emily Nussbaum is probably the most vocal proponent of the Walt fantasy finale (she didn't like it either) , this is what she said about that scene:

I've read a bunch of peices both good and bad on the finale and the only thing everyone seems to agree on was the point of that scene, and that is was an excellent scene. Why is everyone seeing something different than you in that scene?

I don't think it would have been fine. It would have turned the entire series into Walt failing to achieve the catharsis that was designed for him from the beginning. I mean, I guess that would be "fine" but it would make a ton of the episodes look ******ed in retrospect. I'm all for lolling at Walt because he did a lot of stupid ****, but minimizing his "achievements" to that level would have been really bad.

It would have def hurt a lot of butts, but mostly because it would have been a ******ed ending.

A show giving the audience what it wants isn't objectively a bad thing. It can be, but if done properly it can be the best ending while at the same time giving the audience what it wanted. I think that was VG's goal and he nailed it.

Oh man, wait, people are actually going to start arguing that maybe the episode could possibly be interpreted as a fantasy? Oh man that's hilarious. There was no Inception spinning top. It wasn't left open for interpretation. GTFO with that and go read a book or something.

It's more "I know this wasn't the intention, but I'm going to look at it as fantasy because I like that ending better."

Which while interesting as a discussion point, is a little self obsessed to play the ill pretend it was an ending I like better card

this is the problem with this forum:
a) I never said I didn't like the finale
b) BB is very clearly #2 in my goat list

I've said the shooting scene was fairly ******ed, zomg, can't possibly be, the ending was perfect and if you disagree you need to gtfo.

Ok, that's fine. Maybe I unfairly attributed some of the other bad posts to you. I agree the shooting scene was ******ed but they've done enough ******ed things at this point that I didn't care. The show definitely wasn't perfect. I don't even have it in my top 5 probably. Was my favorite series finale ever though (never seen The Shield yet).

I didn't watch Breaking Bad just to see Heisenberg do badass things, although that is certainly fun. One of the things Breaking Bad was exceptional at was keeping the viewer guessing. They used flash forwards to increase the amount of guessing, even from the first episode. The trouble with keeping a viewer guessing all the time is that when the movie or tv show is over, there's no more guessing (or at least what guessing there is is pointless). I have always said that Breaking Bad was exceptional at maintaining tension, but once Hank died, the show's tension died with it, at least for me. I thought the Nazis were terrible villains compared to Gus Fring or even Tuco, so seeing Walter execute them with the oldest plot device in the book - 'Hey I won't kill you ... let me first explain to you why I am better than you' - wasn't that exciting. It was a fun scene but it wouldn't make my top 20 'oh [censored]' scenes from this show.

The final episode gave lip service to the character elements that made the show what it was in favor of large setpieces that showed off what a badass Walter White had become. It was fun to see his plan with the Schwartzes play out, but since the Schwartzes weren't very well developed as characters, it fell a little flat for me. The tension between Skyler and Walt and his criminality being exposed was gone, so 'will Walt get caught' is a moot question in the finale too. So it just gave us some of the best elements of the show but threw almost all of the character of the show overboard to do so, while redeeming Walter in a way that I don't think he deserved given his actions throughout the show. I'm not surprised that this finale has near universal acclaim from this thread - finales are so often disappointing - but it certainly colors the rest of the show which I had just watched. I don't think I'll be watching Breaking Bad again even though it was a very fun ride the first time through.

Disagree strongly with this. It wouldn't minimize anything that has happened. Not even sure what you mean by minimizing his achievements. It would, in the sense that outside of his own head, they weren't achievements at all. There's no prize for being the best meth Lord. Only death and destruction. This is how tuco went out. This is how scarface went out. This is how Pablo escobar went out. Not on top.

Walt didn't "deserve" any sort of catharsis. If the show was about truly breaking bad, an ending in which Walt is poor, lonely, miserable, and dying with no closure to all the devastation he's caused would be perfectly reasonable.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, because I liked the ending, but this isn't the only ending that could exist to do the show justice. And some of the criticism regarding too happy an ending is legit imo. But it was so well done and so pleasing as a story that I don't care.

Don't disagree.

One thing I do like is that Walt is often terrible at anticipating the consequences of his actions, and I'm not convinced that that money ever ends up in a trust for Walter Jr., or that the lottery ticket gets Skyler out of jail. Certainly it's what Walter believes will happen, but he's not always great at knowing that (e.g. he thinks his video will stop Hank from investigating him but he is wrong)

Walt didn't go out on top. His family is ruined and he died. He went out like a meth lord. If he got arrested and didn't get any revenge he would have went out like a bitch nerd teacher.