I'm totally fine with student loans being non dischargeable in bankruptcy but the interest rates should be fixed at the 30yr Fed bond rate or even lower.

Yes, I too went to a CC and then a (non-faux ivy) state school. I agree that it's not only viable but a great option.

It's also an intentional diminishing of our own educational opportunity that you and I both had to accept as part of our cost-benefit analysis of attending college.

The consequences, though, and the degree to which college educations are "outside your means" for the average college applicant, are completely distorted and new - they are not what any generation before ours had to grapple with. That is an economic decision that was knowingly made at our expense for boomer gain (and then squandered, as they squandered their every advantage and then shat out the consequences for us to clean up for them while they fester but don't die for overlong periods while breaking our healthcare system. . .), that impacts us moving forward in a way that Americans never suffered before. That is what we are talking about - not whether the decisions applicants make are good or bad, but about the burden of our educations (and the quality thereof) being a knife-edge significant cost-benefit-analysis instead of a generational birthright.

The risk of high-achieving people declaring Chapter 7 upon graduation is a totally make-believe phantom, first they would not get discharge without demonstrating efforts to get a job (so they wouldn't get discharge), second they'd be dooming their young adult financial lives before they even began.

The "smart" people CDL is positing would not ever do something that ruinous and idiotic.

I skimmed that and it points out what you are saying about many people not finding jobs which I know to be true. I think you got good advice on making sure to cover all your bases.

In general, I don't see why anyone should signup to go to law school unless they are sure they can come out of a T14 with decent grades and a resume or be very near the top of their class elsewhere. If you think you might be in the 65th percentile at a middle of the pack law school then its probably not worth it. Likewise, a middling MBA is probably not worth it nor is a non-elite private undergrad degree unless you just have money to spare.

Now, you can find non-financial reasons to pay for a degree and you can also justify it by using it to buy time, but these are secondary considerations.

The point you make above though seems to be that if you're not going to be better than at least half or 2/3 of people graduating law school then you shouldn't go due to the oversupply. I agree with that. If you're not good enough then don't do it because its a waste of money.

It's almost like a lot of people can't tell if they're "good enough" or not, having been told for their entire lives they are "good enough," and having tested high enough that they have proven they are "good enough," and having gotten in because their tests also say they are "good enough," and having been told by the school they may attend that ~ everyone gets a sick job.

People will walk away from houses when they're merely $50k in the hole. Lol at you if you think a huge portion of new graduates wouldn't immediately look into and pursue a chapter 7 after graduating with $200k+ in debt.

There's been a lot of discussion about how there just aren't many jobs out there so it's amazing you'd take that position.

I agree with this but you run into problems when law schools show you data that say you only need to be in the top 80% to make a good living.

Obviously the jig is up and there's plenty of information out there if you're looking in the right places but it shouldn't ever come down to that.

I'm all for people suffering the consequences of their bad decisions but the should at least have complete information to start with. Same goes for regular college

Confirmed.

Lol me.

agree, but luck is part of life. All you can do is play the odds. It won't work for everyone, but if you make the right decisions time and time again then you're likely to end up ok.

I do agree that people of very specific ages will always be in a worse/better shape than those 5 years older or younger than them just due to market cycles.

A lot of employers also check credit reports before hiring, so by declaring bankruptcy they would be making it much much harder to land a good job, defeating the entire purpose of getting their degree

Not sure how smart they were but I know of people who were getting home equity lines of credit during the real estate boom and then using that to pay off student loans and then filing for bankruptcy. I guess 7 years of bankruptcy-level beacon scores were preferable to a lifetime of debtor's prison.

I do agree that colleges should be made to give out the most accurate employment data that is available.

I do find it funny that law schools seem to be the biggest scammers (outside of for-profits) in this regard since obtaining the facts and pouring over all kinds of information looking for minutiae are crucial skills for a lawyer.

It's important to note here that this strat isn't completely cut and dried as disko alludes. The prestige of your law school + your class ranking really matter most when it comes to landing your first job. Once you've made your bones it matters less where you went to school than how good you are at your job. (Do you even know where your doctor went to med school? Probably not if you like him/her and they're good at doctoring).

If you plan on going to work for your Uncle Bubba at his two-man firm doing wills and trusts and bankruptcies it doesn't really matter where you went to school or where you ranked in your class, only that you passed the bar.

One of Trump's attorneys went to Cooley, which is widely regarded as the literal WOAT law school (especially now that Whittier has mercifully shuttered its facilities) and he's done quite well for himself.

Not sure whether Cooley or Golden Gate is the literal WOAT but I do know that Golden Gate sent me an "acceptance" letter and full scholarship after the LSAT when I had not applied, which I thought a tad aggressive.

Namath is right that getting the first job and then excelling is what matters, btw, which makes the fraudulent inducement through job numbers even more damaging.

so much winning

if you keep educating people until 60, they might still have meaningful jobs at retirement, rather than sliding back to minimum wage right when they need the most savings.

you are going to need a lot more anecdotes to convince enough people to give up on college. it's not perfect, but it's really the only thing that's ever worked for societies.

Of course I know where my doctor went to med school (and undergrad and did his residency). Why wouldn't you research that before picking a doctor? I looked all that up when I was looking for a primary care physician.

Funny that you mention Cooley. I once dated a girl who went there and she was not really intelligent at all, but her dad was a very high profile attorney and able to secure her a clerkship with a state Supreme Court justice where she was from in spite of her obvious deficiencies. I'd say it was worth the investment for her due to her connections.

Yeah they straight up lie (or massively mislead without technically lying) about things like employment rates and the bar and courts let them get away with it.

All he needed to do was temporarily detain the Democrats to keep them away and they would have repealed Obummercare with a 12 to 1 margin.

it is true that most 18 year olds probably shouldnt be going to college, or at least not full time. getting job / apprenticeships would be a great way to focus studies down the line.

Really? I know where literally one doctor I've had in my life went to school and that's because we used to talk Bama football when I would visit and he mentioned it. I also knew where my dentist went to dental school but that was only because I did a Mentorship program in HS and shadowed him for an entire day once.

I'm not sure how it is now, but it used to be that, if you were trying to land a Biglaw job, they only cared about federal clerkships and didn't care at all about clerkships to state court judges, though I guess clerking for a state supreme might be good. One of my classmates clerked for a state appeals court judge after graduation and his friend who was trying to get him on at the Biglaw firm he worked for told him not to even put it on his resume /shrug

Thomas Jefferson, Whittier (RIP) and Barry all "invited" me to apply heh

oh right JEFFERSON, another firecracker of an educational institution

It is a scam and a bubble and this is the lynch pin of the scam.

Education truly is a public good. If you got to be a sim city style dictator, you would spend public funds on education because there is a direct route from better education systems to better overall societies. At some point this public good became an expensive, private risk.

The education gospel says it's a necessity and worth any price. Prices are set by loan limits. Loans are federally guaranteed and not dischargeable. The only incentive is to get the student to sign on the line which is dotted. Not to provide actual value or measurable outcomes. It's glenngary glen ross.

The idea that 18 year olds get what they deserve if they can't make perfect decisions is repulsive to me. An industry is designed to scam them and has experience, market research, and every authority figure on their side. Who is supposed to see through that? It's like if muggings were common and people blamed the victims for not being strong enough to win physical fights against trained fighters.

To anybody who thinks like that, what kind of decisions did you make at that age? Because my decision making was beyond terrible. Likewise for my friends. The best predictor of outcomes was not our individual intelligence or skills. It was the support systems we had. People whose family and friends were connected to success could listen to them about how to succeed.