NFL Modern Era Draft: Discussion Thread - Page 304 - Sporting Events and Fantasy Sports

Franchise 60 · 10-24-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixticator

So you think Herman Moore, those olinemen and the other wr's are also overrated? This part of your argument makes no sense. Either they had a good supporting cast or they didn't. Make up your mind.

Or are you saying Barry Sanders made EVERYONE on the offense worse? If so nice level.

Dude, don't waste your time. This all started with him saying that Barry negatively affected the QB's, which was evident by the fact they were bad in DET and ok elsewhere.

Now he says "of course a QB would do better with all that talent!"

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Seadood228 · 10-24-2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhail's Fortunes

Franchise, you should use your last five picks on the Lions' linemen, that will stop all Barry Sanders arguments because he'll have the same linemen as when he ran for 6 ypc, and I'm sure nobody else will take them.

Let's take a hypothetical look at two running back performances over a half. Yes these are made up, but are typical of what we'd see.

RB#1, we'll call him Mr. Smith

4,4,5,2,4,3,5,4,3,10,4,3 = 51 yds 4.25 YPC

RB#2, we'll call him Mr. Sanders

1,1,18,-4,8,2,33,-3,4,7,0 = 67 yds 5.8 YPC

RB#2 clearly has the better stats, but which performance is going to lead to more points? Which performance is going to give your team more options as far as playcalling is concerned? And which performance is going to be better for getting your QB in rhythm? Which performance is going to get your QB sacked more?

Barry could have been a much more consistent back if he wanted to. Sure his YPC would have suffered, but I don't think his team success would have.

Assani Fisher · 10-24-2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise 60

They had less yards, and went from 10th in rushing to 28th. If YPC doesn't tell the whole story that does. You also claimed the offense didn't suffer when he left, when they clearly did.

Since the post you were replying to was discussing their points allowed, I'm pretty sure he would answer that points allowed is the most important stat and what does tell the whole story.

Franchise 60 · 10-24-2008, 06:38 AM

How about this hypothetical, which RB had the best OL ever, and which had a below average OL?

vixticator · 10-24-2008, 06:38 AM

Do you really think 5.0 ypc over 3062 attempts is a bad statistic? I can see a few games where the stat is misleading. But over an entire career, no. It's not possible. Sorry.

Assani Fisher · 10-24-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise 60

How about that the team went from 10th to 28th in rushing? Does that suffice? Or was the fact they were consistently horrible at running the ball the following season more valuable?

Yes indeed, those are things that I would NOT have thought were strange if you had brought them up after his entire point was that consistency is more important than overall YPC.

Seadood228 · 10-24-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixticator

So you think Herman Moore, those olinemen and the other wr's are also overrated? This part of your argument makes no sense. Either they had a good supporting cast or they didn't. Make up your mind.

Or are you saying Barry Sanders made EVERYONE on the offense worse? If so nice level.

I never said that he made EVERYONE worse. I said that he had a better team around him than many claim.

Franchise 60 · 10-24-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

Since the post you were replying to was discussing their points allowed, I'm pretty sure he would answer that points allowed is the most important stat and what does tell the whole story.

You think points scored tells the whole story? Really? So you think that it is fair to say that a team that is 28th in rushing but scores more points has a better running game than a team 10th in rushing but less points scored?

Assani Fisher · 10-24-2008, 06:41 AM

btw, sorry I got you guys onto this tangent. I obviously was never implying that Barry was a bad RB at all. I just found it interesting that his former lineman would single him out as the most difficult to block for and I was curious as to what people thought about that. I didn't mean to restart the entire Barry debate.

Assani Fisher · 10-24-2008, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise 60

You think points scored tells the whole story? Really? So you think that it is fair to say that a team that is 28th in rushing but scores more points has a better running game than a team 10th in rushing but less points scored?

No, I did not say what I thought at all. I did not give my opinion. You asked him a question, and I was pretty sure about his answer so I gave it to you.

Seadood228 · 10-24-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixticator

Do you really think 5.0 ypc over 3062 attempts is a bad statistic? I can see a few games where the stat is misleading. But over an entire career, no. It's not possible. Sorry.

Where did I say that's a bad statistic?

Franchise 60 · 10-24-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

Yes indeed, those are things that I would NOT have thought were strange if you had brought them up after his entire point was that consistency is more important than overall YPC.

But I did bring up those stats, and they were brought up in response to his entire flawed argument, which included ypc. Once I found them I posted them.

Seadood228 · 10-24-2008, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise 60

But I did bring up those stats, and they were brought up in response to his entire flawed argument, which included ypc. Once I found them I posted them.

still not getting it.. I give up.

Assani Fisher · 10-24-2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise 60

But I did bring up those stats, and they were brought up in response to his entire flawed argument, which included ypc. Once I found them I posted them.

I know you did. And when you brought those up, I did not think it was strange. When you brought up YPC, I did think it was strange. Thats all.

FWIW I agree with you that Barry was a great great back. If I had to chose, I'd probably say that right now I have Faulk at #1, Emmitt at #2, and Barry at #3, but I keep going back and forth as its really close imo.

Seadood228 · 10-24-2008, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assani Fisher

I know you did. And when you brought those up, I did not think it was strange. When you brought up YPC, I did think it was strange. Thats all.

FWIW I agree with you that Barry was a great great back. If I had to chose, I'd probably say that right now I have Faulk at #1, Emmitt at #2, and Barry at #3, but I keep going back and forth as its really close imo.

I think Barry is very similar to Allen Iverson. They both have a unique talent and are excellent at it, but it just doesn't translate into team success. When you hear Barry's name mentioned, phrases like "one of a kind" always come to mind. That's definitely true, there was nobody as elusive in open space, but being elusive doesn't necessarily translate into greatness.

And as far as his the whole "OLine" argument is concerned, that's just something we'll never know. What we DO know is that Barry passed up on holes, and Emmitt did not. Who's to say that Emmitt's Lions wouldn't have done better than Barry's Cowboys? And no I'm not implying anything, merely speculating.

[edit] And why is it that announcers today lambaste [undrafted RB] for dancing around behind the LOS, yet Barry was praised for this? Methinks these guys have gotten smarter as we've learned more about the game.