Compared to other MVP candidates

What happens if you swap teams for Harden and Westbrook?

both teams get worse probably. beverley and westbrook struggle each other to death in training

I think Houston definitely gets worse. I originally thought OKC would slightly be better but OKC's lack of shooting would be pretty awful for Harden. I'm actually thinking they might be worse now too.



Going linearly down that list (Bevs to Payne, EGo to VO etc) who would you say has the edge?

IMO, Bev, Ariza, and Randerson are significantly better than their OKC counterparts. Dekker is better than Sabonis. VO/Ego and Adams/Capela, are for this season, probably washes or at best slight edges to OKC. Kanter > Nene.

Net I think Houston's cast is clearly better, which would you disagree with? Houston has performed well with Harden off the court this year too, which adds something to that conclusion.

My point is about the shooting. They are the worst 3P shooting team in the league last I checked. You think swapping Ariza for Roberson and R. Anderson for ~55 games of Sabonis in the starting lineup improves this team?


Edit: Looks like OKC is now tied with Deteoit for second worst 3P% ITL. Orlando 30th.

In other news, non top 8 teams woyas with a >99% chance of finishing with the 1st seed ahead of SA who were >99% to win the title yesterday after the 1st quarter

lol tz overreacting

It seems like Houston's supporting cast is better, but Kanter/Adams/VO/Roberson are quite good NBA players. As we talked about the fit is a little better from a shooting standpoint, but RWB's team is built to hide him on defense much in a similar way that Harden's is built to space the floor for him on O.

Also Houston has a better coach. And the on/off data is weird because Billy D wasn't staggering for the majority of the year, MDA is much better at hiding Harden's minutes with him off.

I think OKC gets worse. Harden has so much more spacing and most teams just aren't going to have the D intensity to defend a team shooting 40-45 3's a game in the regular season. There has never even been a team like that before, it's a little ahead of the curve and makes them better than what their talent level really is. You gotta give MDA credit there.

I'm not sure if Houston would be better with Russ but I do think he might have problems replicating Russ volume with that type of team around him. And also his late game success.

Maybe if you've decided that your best path to a championship is a top 10 D and a top 10 O you know that you have to hide RWB on D so much that you need strong defenders around him instead of floor spacers, and that he can figure it out on O by himself. Of course I think it's their FO's fault that they didn't find any two way wings in like 5 years, but those are pretty hard to come by.

What? Roberson is atrocious from the FT and 3P line. He's elite on the other end, but I'm not even sure he should be playing in the current NBA. He's shooting 42% from the free throw line for Christ's sake. Slow your roll on "quite good".

re: his "late game success"

Mostly variance. I'm not saying he hasn't been good in the clutch this year and doesn't deserve some credit for that, but look at the sample sizes on clutch stats. Let's see what happens this year in the playoffs when he's even more choked off

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to respond to this post or not, but the guy is an NBA player. Whether he's 75th best in the league or 125th best in the league I don't care, but he's a legit rotation player who plays a little D, gets out in transition, etc. I feel like this entire thread doesn't even think defense exists. It might not be half the battle, but it's at least a third

the thunder's offense would be better in transition with harden imo. as for halfcourt, harden is an elite 1v1 player. how would the shooting be bad for him in ways that it is not for rwb? i think rwb is a better defender than harden, though still kinda bad, but the thunder's d is prob worse w/harden.


edit: rwb would certainly be more efficient in houston, but i don't think he would approach harden's efficiency. don't think he drastically improves their d either so i think hou ends up worse


shhhhhhh

I agree Adams and VO are above average NBA starters and don't get enough credit. Roberson I don't really like that much and is like a fringe starter/first wing off the bench kind of a guy. He's just too terrible at offense. Kanter is an elite bench big but is kind of limited in his role and unplayable vs certain teams. He does fit very nicely with Russ though and vs second units.

No doubt MDA's offense and Harden have contributed to Houston supporting cast "appearing" better but I still think they are very clearly better even if the gap is less than public perception

This roster was literally constructed (besides the Taj trade) thinking KD resigns in FA. I don't think there's any delusion that there's a clear path to a championship from where they are now. I'm going to continue watching Russ go God Mode on everyone in his prime and enjoy the ride. Titles aren't everything.

Their shooting would almost certainly be better with Harden playing PG just by virtue of the spacing he brings.

Also, I know the question was comparing them pre-L Will trade, but by the time the season is over he is gonna have about 25 games with them.

It is tougher to hide someone like that in the playoffs but regular season you can get away with it easier. They just have a lot of guys that the sum of the parts makes it difficult to defend during the regular season. It's such an onslaught.

It's like the Oakland A's going moneyball in 1999 or whatever.

It was close enough that OKC was projected to be better than Houston in nearly every Vegas/power ranking at the beginning of the year. It's almost like there's something to Harden making his teammates look appreciably better.

Roberson, Grant, Taj, and Sabonis still can't really make open 3s. How much is he really providing here with the spacing?

That's not what I said.

Going from championship squad to a horrible roster isn't accurate.

they lost one of the best 5 players in the league and also their 3rd best player. If the Warriors lost Curry and Dray/Klay in the offseason they'd be pretty lol too with Klay/Dray leading the rest of the team.

If they just lost Curry would be a better example since Ibaka was replaced with VO.

They would probably still be pretty good assuming you keep Barnes/healthy Bogut too. But not really same as OKC losing KD.

Ibaka/Waiters isn't better than Adams.

Russ will have 2 maybe 3 teammates drafted before Harden will have 1 in our current dynasty draft for whatever that's worth

Warriors also looked great with Klay leading them in the beginning of the PO's when Steph went down last year.

It was like a throwback to Ray Allen or Reggie Miller led teams.