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Old 06-15-2017, 02:58 AM   #26
Seadood228
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

I think it's really hard to rate them because Kyrie is in perhaps the best position possible playing with LBJ and AI ftmp did everything himself. While some may want to say that's his own doing, Iverson had one of his best seasons as a 32 year-old after finally going to a coach with some offensive acumen, and that was playing with another high-usage scorer.

I'd flip a coin tbh, seems really close to me.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:02 AM   #27
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Another thing about Kyrie is hes only 24 coming off the best season of his career. Hes only going to keep getting better.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:55 AM   #28
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

lol anyone who takes Iverson over Kyrie. What is he better at? They're both putrid defenders, although at least Kyrie's size makes him a passable on ball defender when he tries (see: his block on Curry in game 1 of the 2015 NBA finals). Kyrie has possibly the best handles of all time, is a superior finisher around the rim and shooter. Kyrie is overrated by the masses but he is underrated itt.

OT but discussion I had recently- is Iggy a HoFer? I guess I'm asking both if he will and should get in.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:16 AM   #29
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

To be fair AI was great at drawing fouls, that was all I could find while I was looking at their numbers.
Iggy has to be in, he's a finals mvp that's probably going to win 3+ rings, even if he's a weird finals mvp, that's gotta be enough right?
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:25 AM   #30
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

AI>Kyrie

Kyrie is still getting better though so it's not final yet
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:36 AM   #31
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffRas22 View Post
lol anyone who takes Iverson over Kyrie. What is he better at? They're both putrid defenders, although at least Kyrie's size makes him a passable on ball defender when he tries (see: his block on Curry in game 1 of the 2015 NBA finals). Kyrie has possibly the best handles of all time, is a superior finisher around the rim and shooter. Kyrie is overrated by the masses but he is underrated itt.

OT but discussion I had recently- is Iggy a HoFer? I guess I'm asking both if he will and should get in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen Hero View Post
To be fair AI was great at drawing fouls, that was all I could find while I was looking at their numbers.
Iggy has to be in, he's a finals mvp that's probably going to win 3+ rings, even if he's a weird finals mvp, that's gotta be enough right?
Iggy is a HOFer.
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:46 AM   #32
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Lol no how does a player that was never top 10 itl end up in the HOF ?

Shawn Marion is not hof either and he's 100% better than iggy.

Hof is for true great players and popular scoring frauds like Melo. Would not be surprised to hear thay Kyrie deserve a lock hof
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:23 AM   #33
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

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Hof is for true great players and popular scoring frauds like Melo.
Yup, Mitch Richmond got in and he made the playoffs like 3 times as a starter. Both he and Melo ranged in the olympics tho and I think non-NBA achievements get rated quite highly.

Don't think Iggy deserves to get in and he probably won't imo.
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:39 AM   #34
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Hof also likes people with a lot of rings. There is no guarantee iggy will even be back but if he some how ran up a ton of rings he'd have a shot. His stats are absolutely terrible for a hofer in the regular season and the playoffs. Yes he won a finals mvp but he was hardly the best player on the court--Lebron and curry were likely better.

His real comparator is Dennis Johnson who is in the hof so it's definitely possible but hardly probable. Dennis made the all d team 9 times and all star 5 and all NBA 2 vs 2/1/0 for iggy. Dennis has one more ring as well. They both have one finals MVP.

Bref has iggy' current hof likeliness at 2%. Dennis at the end of his career was at 50%.

Last edited by capone0; 06-15-2017 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:01 AM   #35
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Iggy not a HOF
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:28 AM   #36
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Id have his chances lower than bbref's 2%
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:31 AM   #37
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

His chance is higher than that but I would never vote for him. But Mitch Richmond is the HoF's HIV and now every mediocre NBAer can get through its weakened immune system.
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:31 AM   #38
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by capone0 View Post
Bref has iggy' current hof likeliness at 2%. Dennis at the end of his career was at 50%.
This sequence is pretty lol:

16. Joe Johnson 0.5056
17. Kevin Love 0.4280
18. Rajon Rondo 0.3877
19. Blake Griffin 0.2710
20. Manu Ginobili 0.2005

Manu should be a lock.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../hof_prob.html
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:36 AM   #39
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Well I don't think their formula accounts for International Work. Additionally the fact that Manu is part of 4 titles + Olympic Gold Medal + arguably best player for Argentina all time makes him a certain lock.

Don't forget Mitch was part of the 1996 Olympic Gold Medal team + won a title with the Fakers. He's definitely a weak HOFer but his resume clearly isn't awful.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:07 AM   #40
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Iggy has a gold medal too. We had this conversation a couple years back. Tings was a big backer.

I was a skeptic but said if he won some more rings it was def possible - that was pre-Durant tho. There's not enough rub for 5 HOF'ers on that team, I don't think anyway.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:11 AM   #41
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017



Sorry dood.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:21 AM   #42
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Iggy might have never been a Top 20 player in any given year. Playing on a super team late in his career doesn't really change that. No one is saying Gerald Wallace or Danny Granger should be in the hot. They were pretty equivalent players in their primes.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:55 AM   #43
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Iggy is 1 of the most underrated players this century, but if he gets in HOF then what's the point really?

I'm not even saying he isn't HOF, maybe he is, but if he is then I am saying I don't care about HOF at all.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:11 AM   #44
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

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Originally Posted by Wooders0n View Post
Iggy might have never been a Top 20 player in any given year. Playing on a super team late in his career doesn't really change that. No one is saying Gerald Wallace or Danny Granger should be in the hot. They were pretty equivalent players in their primes.
Those were some short "primes" for a career, come on now.

If Danny Granger was Danny Granger for a decade plus, the whole situation would be different. He was done at 28.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:54 AM   #45
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Winning olympic gold should only count for non-american players

What Argentina did in 2004 was awesome. What Us did in 2008-12-16 is not embarassing themselves
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:12 AM   #46
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

I know, I've only been discussing the will he not the should he side. I don't think so, but the gold medal def helps him with that audience.

I don't think he should either, but the basketball HOF is a joke as it is.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:21 AM   #47
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

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Originally Posted by GeoffRas22 View Post
lol anyone who takes Iverson over Kyrie. What is he better at? They're both putrid defenders, although at least Kyrie's size makes him a passable on ball defender when he tries (see: his block on Curry in game 1 of the 2015 NBA finals). Kyrie has possibly the best handles of all time, is a superior finisher around the rim and shooter. Kyrie is overrated by the masses but he is underrated itt.

OT but discussion I had recently- is Iggy a HoFer? I guess I'm asking both if he will and should get in.
He should not be a HoFer. But HoF is a huge joke so I expect him to get in if warrrors rang 1 more time.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:50 AM   #48
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

i think the bref guys would concede that the hof probability calculator sorely underrates someone like manu.

Quote:
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AI should be creating space, not using it. he had 9 freaking seasons below .520ts, spacing wouldn't magically make him grow a few inches
comparing their efficiency is tricky given relative usg and scoring environment. in iverson's defense for many years he played with offense killer larry brown and also played without a secondary creator, though the latter point is very likely his fault. many of his seasons look gross strictly on the basis of his ts%, but i don't think it's a coincidence that his ts% jumped into the .530-.540 range in the mid 2000s. we could attribute this to maybe larry brown being gone, or maybe to iguodala joining the sixers? might be pushing it to credit iggy a ton there since he was young and a low usg player, but he is a very smart and a good passer. i imagine he made life a lot easier for iverson offensively. iverson was also pretty efficient in his stint in denver (prob averaged a shade under 56% ts those two seasons). i think it's a little more complicated than saying "iverson was an inefficient player."

that is not to completely absolve iverson of this relatively poor efficiency. people defend it by saying he had to shoot that much because he had no one else, but that was at least in part b/c of him. this point is forgotten now, but the sixers actually drafted iverson to pair with stackhouse, but there was too much friction so they moved stackhouse. i don't think it's surprising that iverson put up a couple of his more efficient seasons playing with stackhouse (and coleman). still he liked to shoot a lot and it torpedoed his efficiency. that said i think you could construct a team where iverson has high, but not insanely high efficiency, and in that scenario he is likely an efficient player.

i'm inclined to believe kyrie would probably perform better relatively playing at iverson levels of usg, but his shot selection is a little sketchy so i don't think that's a lock. that point is moot though b/c you don't want either of them at that usg and kyrie has shown a willingness/ability to play with other high usg players (guess you could point to iverson in denver again here). we might be feeling kyrie a bit too much here anyway though b/c he gets to play as the second option with lebron. people prob have a very different opinion of kyrie if he is a #1 option


edit: bref hof calculator draws from leaderboards among other things. manu not really a bulk #s guy due to minutes, which is not sufficient reason for him to miss the hof, but is a fair criticism of his overall value

Last edited by tarheeljks; 06-15-2017 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:08 PM   #49
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Kyrie is a poor man's AI with 3pt shooting
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:22 PM   #50
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Re: NBA Offseason Thread 2017

Iggy was so underrated pre-GSW, I think there are years there where he was a top 15 player... Maybe he'd have a chance if his career started now and we have the type of eyes that we do on advanced numbers, but as it stands I don't think he will nor is he deserving.
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