Put Steph on Houston, for example, and I think the offense takes a small step backwards.

Steph really benefits from playing with Klay/Iggy/Dray, all high IQ guys who have either elite gravity or close-to-elite playmaking for their positions.

they get significantly better in every way, there's nothing Harden does better than Curry, on both sides. If we're arguing Curry would get tired later on in the season that's pure speculation at this point

Warriors Team ORTG, league rank, starting w/Steph's rookie year:
14, 12, 14, 11, 12, 2, 1, 1

Steph didn't improve that much from leading a mid-league O to top O, but the system implemented by Kerr and the improvement of the pieces around him were the keys.

I could see Houston and last year's OKC being worse with Steph, but that's less on him and more the makeup of their team and offensive strategy. Either way Steph is >>> Harden/Westbrook because the cap on how good your offense can be with him is much, much higher. The floor is slightly lower with Steph, but if we're talking about building championship contenders that's not an issue.

Harden is much better at getting to the foul line.

Harden is better at getting to the rim, and arguably better at finishing.

Harden is arguably a better passer.

Harden has demonstrably carried a heavier load, and Curry has not demonstrated he can lead a top-ranked offense single-handledly.

Right.

But the question posed was: How does Steph do surrounded by Hou/Okc level talent?

@Heroball, I would think worse, but the magnitude of which I'm not really sure of.

I don't see how they'd be any better with him in that situation.

I somewhat dispute the team with Curry on it has wayyyy higher offensive ceiling than Harden team.

The 2011-12 Thunder were an elite offense with a very young Harden/Russ and pre-prime KD. If you swap Harden for Curry and let him play with Durant/Klay/Dray/Iggy in that system and GSW are still overwhelmingly title favorites. And their offense is unquestionably going to be elite and ~the Warriors offense last year.

I doubt the 2015-16 Warriors offense is wayyyyy worse with Harden in lieu of Curry, but the obvious data point is the old Okc team. I could see Harden fitting extremely well with Klay and Dray on O. I do think the offense is likely slightly worse (couple points/100 my guess).

I would assume Curry off ball >>>> Harden, RWB off-ball especially doing set shots, etc. Which makes him much more valuable on an elite team.

I think this can't be stated enough--we all know of the shooting aspect, but Steph pretty much turns himself into an absolutely elite role player the moment he gives up the ball. Maybe it's a coaching thing, but I don't see guys like Harden and especially Westbrook screen/space like Steph does when they don't have the ball. I used to think it was coaching, but lately I've begun to think that there are very few players who can be a superstar on-ball and a superstar off. Most of the elite players are superstars on-bsll and good floor-spacers without the ball imo, which is where you get the diminishing returns from having so many great guys on a team.

This idea that if a super elite guy were to go to a different team he'd have to fit their style is ridiculous. The Rockets play the way they do because it fits Harden's style. Who cares if Steph potentially couldn't carry the USG in a p&r heavy offense that Harden does? Do we really think that if Steph was traded to the Rockets they'd shoehorn him into that? Of course not. They'd revamp their offense to fit his strengths. That's what smart teams do.* And btw, while Steph may not be able to fill Harden's role, Harden DEFINITELY can't do what Steph does for GS. He's not nearly as willing a screen setter nor as active off the ball to create for himself/others. So ya, swap the two and both teams may get worse, but the Warriors fall off a lot more than the Rockets do.

*It's not like we're talkin about him being traded to the Knicks where he'd be forced into the triangle or something.

What

I'd say 'Staps right now reminds me a lot of Klay Thompson (minus the NY hype): early career does things that are very pleasing to the eye, but also has some correctable things as a young player (shot selection, play recognition, overall skill development) that should get better with age. And most importantly, if Kawhi was brought along perfectly and given as much as he could handle from a young age, Klay and KP are being curated as poorly as possible: iso postups and other nonsense that they may never be able to do, but definitely can't do as 21 year olds. Bad coaching, bad system.

So: the crowd that thinks KP has shown to be in anyway near KAT, Embiid, AD is very, very wrong. He's been a fine young player, but can't hold a candle to those guys.

The crowd that thinks he's got potential to be a top 10 player itl is probably also right, but we may never see it due to organizational incompetence with personnel, coach, player development, etc. Top 5 player, I'd say he doesn't, most who become that good at some point have some semblance of 1 on 1 skills of which he has none. I don't think that's a big deal nor do I think it's any kind of knock having him as unlikely to be a top 5 player.

Also anyone who has a strong opinion about Ball/Fultz v Staps is silly: it's a ridiculously close case of unknowns, neither side is more than a 2 or 3 to 1 favorite over the other to have a better career.

uhhh

let's just go with post defense for an easy one

Harden shot 40% on 86% AST'd on 3s his last year in OKC. I don't think he would have a problem playing off ball and did fine in OKC when he did

This year it was 34% on 31% AST'd for comparison

Relevant graph on NBA reddit front page

their shot distributions aren't that similar though. for his career dirk took ~57% of his overall shots from midrange/long 2s*, though to be fair it was less skewed in that direction early in his career. again, i think staps is a good shooter. he may be a better 3pt shooter than dirk was, but overall he hasn't demonstrated the jumpshooting profile that defined dirk. even comparing their jumpshooting #s after year two staps lags. he has the capability to be much better around the rim than dirk was though.


it is also interesting to think about whether dirk develops the same way in this nba environment. as i said above 57% of his career fga were midrange or long 2s, but early in his career his shot distribution was more skewed towards 3s and shots at rim (prob b/c he wasn't the primary offensive option). think he prob still takes tons of 2pt jumpers b/c they would still be amazing shots for him and b/c he would struggle to get all the way to the rim. would swap them out for more 3s though

I think it's definitely a coaching thing, because of how markedly the GSW offense improved under Kerr. That said, Steph has demonstrated an amazing ability to screen and move and get himself open---once put into a position that accentuated those skills.

Well, first of all the Warriors have much more room to fall down to (given their lofty perch).

Second, I don't see how Harden/Klay/Iggy/KD/Dray doesn't have a win expectation around 65 (66.5 o/u w/Curry last year). Harden is an extremely willing passer and elite creator/finisher; he fits (in a different way sure) very well with the Warriors. Sure he's not the off-ball wizard Curry is, but he's demonstrated in his OKC days that he can play 2nd option on an elite offense (w/KD no less).

It's as if Harden is suddenly DDR in people's eyes.

Harden has elite BBIQ. Think it's clear he would find lots of space to do good things off ball with Klay/KD moving around and Dray/Iggy operating.

He's bad off-ball last year b/c who else creates offense on last year's Rox??

I'm still not seeing the comparisons to Dirk though. I think the reason Dirk became so effective offensively is that he took the worst shots in the game and made them efficient, all while never turning the ball over. KP is not nearly as good in the midrange, and while he could still be more efficient overall eventually, I'm not their games are comparable.

65% of Dirk's shots were from 3-23 feet, which are considered inefficient shots that his awesomeness made efficient.

48% of KP's shots were from the same area, with a higher assisted rate last year which I assume mean more of those shots weren't open.

So Dirk is taking less of the good shots yet was much more efficient era-adjusted. I just don't think their profiles match at this point.

yeah, that's what i'm saying

edit: also looks like i lost part of that post, but if staps blows up offensively i don't think it'll be b/c he is a deadeye pull up shooter, but b/c he becomes able to attack the rim and ends up being a is a very good shooter who scores all over the floor

Lou for himself.

Let this also be noted as a counterweight to all the omgPatBev love around here.

Can 7'3 attack the rim?

If staps blows up offensively, it'll be because he joined ISIS. lol staps.