randle seemed like a smaller, less athletic dwight based on watching him last night.

this is the draft thread seth, we are gauging their status as NBAers not collegiates.

i think webber comparison is good on a number of levels. it's not perfect bc randle is so unique.

anyway i figured it out. he's the black Kevin Love

Wiggins is the black Gordon Hayward.

Jabari is the white Carmelo.

worth thinking again, with the context of these players, about just how absurd a prospect LeBron was.

wish he went to college for 4 years just to see records become insurmountable. I mean, if he really went to Akron with his friends how good would they have been?

I saw more ZBO than Webber from Randle. I think his ceiling is definitely higher than ZBO though. He's a beast.

The webber comparison is legit awful unless you're comparing him to old busted webber. Pre injuries Webber dunked on fools left right and center. Randle has many good qualities, but above the rim finishing isn't one of them.

skilled PF who will be elite defensively with sick handles + passing

webber more athletic, randle stronger on the boards. so ya it's not perfect but that doesn't make it awful bc there is no facsimile of randle in nba history.

Randle is what the Cavs thought Anthony Bennett was.

jabari's going to get a ton of steals this year since his strat for guarding bigs seems to front and gambol for the steal

advanced analytics ghana have him as the GOAT prospect. probably rate him higher than labron

Can randle pass? Webber comp meh if not. Also, read that wiggins locked up parker half 2. Confirm/deny

y u keep saying this? he may not be an elite elite athlete but he certainly is capable of getting up



1:16, 1:22, 2:40, 3:00, etc

only concern about his athleticism is he may have a case of the creeping FAT

Walk into the league and be better than Paul George?!? smack yourself

You would think it would be incredibly hard to be fat given that these guys are obviously strenuously exercising for hours a day and are all giants. I admire the sheer willpower needed to get fat in those circumstances, they must be mainlining corn syrup after practice

yeah randle's a real nice passer

wiggins barely guarded parker. there were a total of 2 possessions where jabari touched the ball vs him. first jabari tries to post him and throw up a turnaround j from the elbow, wiggins contests nicely and it's an airball. then jabari tries to put the moves on him in the low block and wiggins stays in front of him and blocks the shot but gets called for a foul. could have been a no call.

i'm sure parker would have a tough time going against wiggins consistently. but that was also in the midst of a v bad stretch for him in the 2nd half. he went 14ish mins where the throws he got from wiggins fouling him were the only pts he got. he also looked bad against perry ellis (who he torched in the first half) forcing a couple of shots that weren't close to going in and a turnover. may have been fatigue may have just been pressing

wiggins is clearly going to be a force defensively but bc of foul trouble he didn't really get to showcase it h2h vs jabari

Working on a nice summary of Wiggins defensively, will be longish.

EDIT: While I'm re-watching this, I'll note that Wiggins spends the first 5 minutes being a freshman with regard to his positioning for boards, etc., just a little new. The way he moves is crazy though.

Also, Parker opens the game as the obvious offensive centerpiece for Duke, they kinda suck. . .

Also at 10-7 Parker has a miserable sequence with a bad contested 2 and then a terribad turnover.

Look, Webber was dunking on elite D1 guys from day 1 in college, not just overmatched HS kids. Last night was my first look at Randle and given the length and physicality of Sparty (which btw is a pale shadow of what he'll see in that regard at the next level), he was a strictly below the rim player offensively.

Deny, they weren't matched up that much and Wiggins was playing in foul trouble (in the second half, kind of). There was one play where Parker drew a foul in a fairly pro v. pro scenario on the left wing. I'm watching the game again on [censored site of dubious legality] and it's not fair to say Parker was locked up.

However, Wiggins is clearly a very good, or better, defensive player with the highest possible elite potential.

First Half

At 3-0 Wiggins closes out on a jumper by Rodney Hood and forces a bad miss short, but does so from a position where it appeared he was obviously out of range to contest a jumper (it appears on the play that Hood was as shocked as anyone that Wiggins was suddenly closing on the shot). That play is truly insane in terms of athleticism:







At 5-2 Wiggins corrals Hood in the left corner and it is clear Hood had no prayer of getting around him. Wiggins is extremely quick.

On the next Duke possession Wiggins loses Hood, who hits a left corner 3, but it's on a broken play that draws Wiggins into the paint to halfheartedly help contest a drive that never happened. By leaving Hood to help in the paint Wiggins gave up an uncontested three, but that was freshman gonna freshman. Hood didn't do anything to "beat" Wiggins here.

At 8-2 another turnover from Kansas (not by Wiggins) results in another open Hood three, which he misses, but this was only because Wiggins was in the paint attempting to rebound an earlier bad miss. Nothing to see here.

At 10-5 Wiggins makes a ridiculously quick spin to his left from the top and draws a blocking foul (and the refs seem to miss that he was shooting at the end of that move, which they probably just didn't anticipate because of the speed or something; should've been 2 shots). This is worth watching at like 15:45 1st Half.

At 10-9 Wiggins forces Hood left into the help defense (Traylor), who blocks the layup attempt. This results in a transition basket for Kansas, on an assist from Wiggins for a trailer dunk, after Wiggins blows through his defender in transition.

At 12:55 Wiggins fouls Marshall Plumlee as the help defender in an overload set on the right. He also stuffs the shot attempt with a really quick jump. He's athletically so much better than Plumlee that he probably would've been fine just letting Plumlee make his move and leaping to block the eventual shot; Plumlee shouldn't be on the same court with him. This was a good rotation from Wiggins.

At 12:40 Alolex Murphy tries to shoot a corner three over Wiggins and of course gets it blocked by Wiggins, who closes approximately 11 feet in one step and jump to be at the apex of his jump and meet the ball:







Note the good anticipation of the drive and kick. Wiggins begins to slide toward Murphy before the pass is made, probably selling out to block the jumper because he knows that no matter what Murphy does Wiggins can react quickly enough to deny a drive.

Wiggins then sits and Parker starts to go off, but this has nothing to do with anything; Wiggins was not on Parker once up to this point.

Wiggins comes back at 11:33 and at 11:24 gets an all world offensive rebound and putback over Plolumlolee and Ellis. Wiggins is the only person on the court who can jump with Wiggins. He's at a different athletic level. Also his anticipation is spectacular.

At 10:35 Wiggins takes the worst jumper of his entire life, missing long off the glass and getting no rim. . .

At 10:00 Hood drives at Wiggins, gets funneled right and is stuck, but Embiid rotates to help (???) Wiggins leaving his man for an assisted layup. Wiggins had Hood trapped baseline otherwise. To this point no one has scored on Wiggins and no one has gotten by Wiggins. Hood physically cannot.

At 9:30 Hood gets a touch foul on Wiggins on a drive to the right. This was pretty ticky-tack but Wiggins did get wrongfooted for the first time. This is where he sits for the rest of the half.

Parker then goes nuts but that's another topic and, a reminder, Wiggins was never on him anyway (thus in the first half Wiggins did not "lock up" Parker).

Second Half

At 19:45 Wiggins does what Wiggins do by spinning left and scoring off the glass. Only guy on the court who can make this move. He covers so much ground on that spin, jesus:







At 19:35 Wiggins makes a spectacular help block on Jeffries, pinning the ball against the backboard with two hands and jumping a full head higher than both Jeffries and Tarik Black (who is out of position). He picks up a foul that I'm not seeing but the camera angle is bad.

At 19:03 Parker throws down that filthy alley-oop, but Wiggins has nothing to do with it (again). Still has never guarded Parker.

At 18:50 Perry Ellis makes a spin move on a drive in the lane, spinning to his left. The comparison between this move and Wiggins's move is crazy. Wiggins probably moves four feet further forward, and noticeably more quickly.

At 18:12 Wiggins throws a terrible, lazy pass but it's not a turnover because of a Duke foul trying to recover the tipped pass.

At 17:57 Wiggins makes another sick move into the lane but the ball spins out. He's just faster than everyone into the lane and into the air. This is not arguable.

At 17:45 Wiggins grabs a rebound over a Dukie and starts a transition break that Ellis finishes. Nice play.

At 16:45 Wiggins is supposed to be covering Tyler Thornton but slides into the paint to help on a weak drive, again (remember the first half), and Duke makes the three, again. His closeout here was half-assed. He needs to stop doing this. When the lane is clogged Kansas is big enough to be fine with Rodney Hood driving at the big guys whether Wiggins helps or not, which means Wiggins should stick the shooter better.

At 15:25 Wiggins converts a fast break layup on a bad alley-oop pass. It seems like he's already a top like, 5 in the world finisher on the break.

At 14:55 Wiggins misses another jumper, this one an uncontested but still pretty bad longest-possible-two that he bangs off the heel of the rim. He kinda does the Kobe laser jumper, his arc and rotation kinda suck balls.

At 14:38 Wiggins is finally on Parker, constests a jumper, and Parker puts up a short airball from approximately the free throw line. Wiggins GOAT (not really, but he is long and Parker was rattled by the contest).

At 14:20 Wiggins drives and gets a bail-out foul call. I'm pretty sure Self told Wiggins to take over so I'm not holding this questionable drive into two defenders against him.

Right after that, Kansas turns it over (not Wiggins) and Duke gets a break with Parker and Cook. Wiggins hustles back and ultimately beats Parker down the court to prevent Cook from passing the ball. However, no one else on Kansas stops anything and Cook gets an easy transition layup. Wiggins seemed to do the correct thing here, regardless. It's clear he's a much, much faster athlete than Parker.

At 13:50 Wiggins is finally matched up with Parker for a significant period of time.

At 12:38 Parker tries to go at Wiggins and gets eaten alive but the refs call a foul on Wiggins. I don't love this foul call but, regardless, Parker made very little headway in anything other than drawing Wiggins's third foul. It looked to me like Parker was overmatched here (this is the one I'm talking about in the first paragraph of this overlong post). Also note that Wiggins appears to keep his hands up and does block the shot anyway, while Parker creates most or all of the contact. Kind of a ****ty call but there was enough flailing that I guess this "always" goes against Wiggins.

With three fouls Wiggins plays good D on Traylor on the next Duke possession (Self moved him off of Parker after the third foul), creating a horrible shot attempt from Traylor that results in an effective turnover.

Then Wiggins gets that first leakout dunk.

At 10:48 Wiggins gets back in transition defense and denies an alley-oop pass. He also pretty clearly commits his fourth foul but it doesn't get called. Make up for the ****ty Parker call, maybe. There's also a lol moment here. After the play the Duke player is looking up at Embiid as if to say "give me a hand up," which basketball players often do. Embiid makes no effort to even extend a token half-assed hand, and this angers the Dukie.

Wiggins sits with 3 fouls at 10:45 (after committing his fourth and not being called for it).

Wiggins comes back at 9:16.

Note that Wiggins is put on Thorton and White from Kansas guards Hood. Hood immediately beats him into the paint for an and-1. Hood is a good player. Wiggins did shut him down.

Duke tries to guard Wiggins with Thornton, so Wiggins instantly starts posting him. This does not go well for Duke (duh, Wiggins has like 4 inches and about 15 inches of vertical over Thornton, who has no chance here).

At 8:34 Wiggins catches in the paint, spins and puts it up, misses, and gets his own tip-in rebound. This is where he shows off that "second-jump-ability" thing people are always talking about that is usually stupid. With Wiggins it's real, he just bounces right back into the air higher than the defenders.

On the next possession Wiggins posts him again and gets fouled by him. This is literally hopeless for Thornton. Wiggins misses the free throw.

At 7:39 Sulaimon shakes Wiggins on the dribble but it's sort of around a pick set on Wiggins by Embiid, who is out of position again.

At 7:33 Wiggins spins and gets fouled again. Wiggins makes two free throws.

At 7:20 Wiggins picks up his fourth foul when he rotates to help on Jefferson, who catches an entry pass and is unguarded. This highlights two things. First, Wiggins needs to learn to take a charge a little better because both this and the Parker play could've been charges. Second, Kansas's defensive rotations suck ass except for Wiggins being ridiculous in his ability to rotate everywhere immediately. Wiggins sits with 4 fouls.

Wiggins comes back at 5:03 and is guarded by Parker. Initially Wiggins posts Parker but Kansas can't make the entry pass. Wiggins is not on Parker (because of the foul issue). He's on Hood again, making Hood worthless.

Through to about 2:10 Wiggins is living in the post but Kansas seems to doubt his ability to grab the high entry pass when he's fronted. This is kind of lol, just throw it higher as he's the only person in the entire gym who can catch it (except Embiid, who would probably be 9 feet out of position). At 2:09 Wiggins draws the defense and Traylor gets an easy lay-in after blowing by Parker (who did appear to be trying to avoid fouling).

At 1:55 Sulaimon makes a floater over Wiggins but it was help D, not his man.

Game is 83-81 Kansas with 1:45 left.

At 1:33 Wiggins hits the elite stepback j over Jefferson. I'm glad he made it but this is probably not great shot selection seeing that (1) he can get by Jefferson at will and (2) until now he had not made an outside shot and (3) his outside shot is not exactly wet. Dicky V says he makes it consistently, so I'm possibly wrong.

At 1:20 Wiggins proves that he's the superior athlete when he gets a transition dunk and-1 when Parker swipes his arm from behind. Dumb foul from Parker but elite speed from Wiggins. This ends the game, basically. Wiggins then bricks the free throw off the heel again. Honestly, he's not a good shooter mechanically or in the "it works" sense of being a good shooter. He flicks it tentatively, doesn't rotate the ball properly, and the arc on his shot varies a lot from shot to shot.

Anyway the brick is so bad it gets tipped out to Wiggins, who passes out to reset. Game over.

At :53 Dicky V is talking about Wiggins's #SWAG. This is important.

Now Dicky V is comparing Wiggins to a thoroughbred (Secretariat), whcih is sorta weird and Django-ish. Wiggins makes two free throws, but each shot is very different again. It's just kinda weird, he's not a good shooter.

At :28.7 the play is dead but Wiggins receives a lazy lob pass at the basket and intentionally messes up the alley-oop. But holy crap does he hang up there really, really high. Here's Wiggins missing the one-handed reverse 30-foot alley-oop with his head at the rim when he wasn't really trying:





Game over.

*****

CLIFFS:

Wiggins barely ever guarded Parker. When he did Parker was bottled up, once putting up an airball "over" a jumper contest and once drawing a questionable foul while getting his drive cut off and his shot stuffed.

Wiggins destroyed Hood when he guarded him.

Wiggins is an elite help defender and covers ground insanely well.

Wiggins is a shot-blocker.

Wiggins crashes the offensive boards all the time, because he can get back fast enough that it doesn't cost him.

Wiggins is "kid skinny," meaning he's right now much lighter than he will eventually be. When he fills out he's going to be even more ridiculous than he already is.

Wiggins is a pretty mediocre shooter and it appears to be an issue.

Wiggins gets suckered into playing help D in the lane, allowing the wings he guards to sometimes take open threes in the corners. This will change because of his elite ability to closeout, but right now it's a mistake he likes to make.

I cannot tell how his handle is or how his passing is.

nice analysis hoya

wow what a post! i dont think his shooting is going to an issue. going by his shoot arounds at the jordan camp and that nice step back yesterday, i like his form, he does jump into his shot too much, he needs to come down in the same spot he leaves. but at 18, magic couldnt shoot, lebron and mj both improved. u only have so many days on the planet as a full grown man when u are 18. i mean his release point has increased 3 feet in the last 5 years.

awesome post

Obviously a good chance his shooting ends up being good, and all it has to be is average for him to be ubermegaelite. If his shooting becomes "pretty good" he's undoubtedly a potential perennial NBA All Star. If he becomes a true shooter in addition to the rest then I don't even know, we're in pretty uncharted territory (TMacish with defense and an interest in winning games and practicing, I guess?).