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View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 139 30.89%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 231 51.33%
Therapist 7 1.56%
George Mikan 2 0.44%
Shaq Attaq 17 3.78%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.67%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 18 4.00%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.67%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 8 1.78%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 13 2.89%
Voters: 450. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2013, 04:28 PM   #151
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by iggymcfly View Post
OK, you got me. If only LeBron would have slacked off in the regular season with Cleveland and put up some ****ty regular season records like MJ's Bulls, he coulda been the GOAT. So close.
you do realize that Jordan only played 18 games in 85-86, and that's probably a big reason why they drew the '86 Celtics in the 1st round, he wasn't "slacking off"

also in your moranic analysis you're penalizing Jordan for making the playoffs the first couple years with bad teams / rewarding labron for not

and what is labron's excuse for not winning in 2011? in his prime, great supporting cast, etc. think i was pulling for him in 2012, but now i kinda wish he didn't win so this lechoke narrative would have continued (sorta like when Peyton won his single RANG). this 2013 Final should do a lot for his story as well.

ok serious question time, how many RANGZ do people think labron will end up with?
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:29 PM   #152
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

6
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:32 PM   #153
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by LeoTrollstoy View Post
Yes, there's a big difference between first round of the playoffs and the NBA Finals.
Yes, there is. It takes much, much more skill to get to the NBA Finals. LeBron made it to the NBA Finals surrounded by a bunch of scrubs at age 22. Michael couldn't even make it to the second round until age 24. This is a huge point in LeBron's favor.


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Also, Jordan missed all but 7 games and playoffs his second season, then put up 63 on one of the all time Boston squads. After getting acclimated to the NBA for a few seasons Jordan NEVER LOST in the finals, you know, the round that determines the champion. So sure, he won one playoff game in his first 3 seasons, then won several more playoff games including every NBA Finals series he entered. Lebron i 1/3 in the Finals, including getting swept and blowing a 2-1 lead. The one season he did make it? Asterisk.
"After getting acclimated", LeBron never lost in a Finals either. He's 1-0 since turning 27. Before that age, LeBron made it an average of one round further in the playoffs than Jordan every year. This is another point in LeBron's favor. Losing in the 2nd round > losing in the 1st round, losing in the conference finals > losing in the 2nd round, and losing in the NBA Finals > losing in the conference finals. The fact that people somehow think it's a point for MJ that LeBron beating MJ by one round every year before winning a ring absolutely boggles my mind. Oh, "LeBron can never be as good as MJ because he lost in the NBA Finals instead of the conference finals". Say what? That's completely back-ass-wards.
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:34 PM   #154
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

2-3 more as a player, and 2 more as a analytics-oriented owner/GM
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:35 PM   #155
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

so everybody is just trolling everybody itt, right?
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:37 PM   #156
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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you do realize that Jordan only played 18 games in 85-86, and that's probably a big reason why they drew the '86 Celtics in the 1st round, he wasn't "slacking off"
OK, so what about 84-85 and 85-87? Also, the fact that the Bulls got a 7 seed with MJ the two years surrounding getting an 8 seed without him doesn't exactly work in his favor for him being super-duper valuable.

Quote:
also in your moranic analysis you're penalizing Jordan for making the playoffs the first couple years with bad teams / rewarding labron for not
LeBron first made the playoffs as a 21-year old in 2005/2006. Michael Jordan first made the playoffs as a 21-year old in 1984/1985. The only difference is LeBron played at a little higher level during his developmental seasons.

Quote:
and what is labron's excuse for not winning in 2011? in his prime, great supporting cast, etc. think i was pulling for him in 2012, but now i kinda wish he didn't win so this lechoke narrative would have continued (sorta like when Peyton won his single RANG). this 2013 Final should do a lot for his story as well.

ok serious question time, how many RANGZ do people think labron will end up with?
Yeah, he had a bad season in 2011. I'd tend to judge people more on what they did accomplish than on their worst season though. As for how many RANGZ Bron finishes with, I'd probably guess 6. Pretty hard to run as good in the Finals as MJ did, but he'll have more prime seasons so it should even out.
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:37 PM   #157
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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so everybody is just trolling everybody itt, right?
I dunno if people are trolling, but everyone is slurping hard. Whether it's MJ's will to win or Lashook's will to PER, slurpers ghana slurp.
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:37 PM   #158
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

u are all insane
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #159
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by LeoTrollstoy View Post
After getting acclimated to the NBA for a few seasons Jordan NEVER LOST in the finals, you know, the round that determines the champion.
that's one way of putting it. here's another way

scottie pippen and michael jordan played together for 10 seasons. in that 10 season span, this is the PER of every player on the bulls roster:



so what does this tell us...

there is more evidence suggesting the bulls didn't start winning titles because jordan got acclimated/more mature/some other immeasurable subjective crap, but rather the bulls started winning titles cuz of pippen, jackson, and an all around universal improvement of supporting cast. jordan remained consistent from his pre-jackson stretch while instead of being the only player above a 20 PER, there was at least 2 of those players every year for his last 6 seasons and in some instances a 3rd player at 20

Last edited by StoppedRainingMen; 06-01-2013 at 04:51 PM. Reason: david vaughn GOAT
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:56 PM   #160
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

i thought you guys quit sortingbyPER like 3 years ago?
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:03 PM   #161
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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This is almost as fun as the Jack/Tiger discussion. Almost.
Jack and Jordan.

Both Tiger and LeBron have ~30-35% chance to get there as of now, neither are there yet despite what they've shown so far. If both died tomorrow neither would be there.

off to dkgo this thread

edit: SRM, aren't those last 3 years 96-98?
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:21 PM   #162
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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fyp
woah. cavs were big big dogs vs the celtics in 08.

Last edited by Victor; 06-01-2013 at 05:34 PM. Reason: oops wrong team. but ya big dogs vs champion celts
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:31 PM   #163
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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also in your moranic analysis you're penalizing Jordan for making the playoffs the first couple years with bad teams / rewarding labron for not
haha. kinda like how ppl criticize lebron for making the finals with the woat supporting cast and getting trounced by a dynasty spurs.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:33 PM   #164
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

the worshipers of MJ are realizing their hero is in the midst of being passed by someone else and will stoop to any level to defend their guy. They dont know what to do and feel defenseless as the they feel the pressure of the walls closing in on them. Its kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:50 PM   #165
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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It's an interesting argument because I would argue Jordan was a better player in some of the title years than during his PER peak years pre-title. Same with Labron, it seems his defense is much better, his outside shooting is better and he can post up. I think he's a better player now than in 2009.
Yeah I think he's SIGNIFICANTLY better now than he was in 2009. His better outside shooting is exactly what his "haters" were yapping out being important to open up the rest of his game vs. good defenses. There's a reason playoff defenses could "stop" him in other years and can't anymore.

PER is good but flawed. Doesn't even tell like 60% of the story, which is why sorting by it for stuff like this is so bad.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:54 PM   #166
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Yeah I think he's SIGNIFICANTLY better now than he was in 2009. His better outside shooting is exactly what his "haters" were yapping out being important to open up the rest of his game vs. good defenses. There's a reason playoff defenses could "stop" him in other years and can't anymore.

PER is good but flawed. Doesn't even tell like 60% of the story, which is why sorting by it for stuff like this is so bad.
his outside shooting and much improved post game certainly help, but a much bigger reason teams can't stop him right now is that he's playing with better teammates. I agree that he's a better player today though.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:57 PM   #167
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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his outside shooting and much improved post game certainly help, but a much bigger reason teams can't stop him right now is that he's playing with better teammates. I agree that he's a better player today though.
I mean, whether it's Haslem,/Ilgauskas/Bosh, Chalmers, or Mo Williams, I don't think it matters hugely. His supporting casts in Cleveland were good supporting players. Obviously he had no one close to Wade back then and that's certainly made a huge difference, but I think if you put this LeBron on those teams with better shooting and much more mental maturity, you see a difference result a large % of the time. It wouldn't have mattered against the Spurs most likely but the losses to Orlando, Boston, and certainly Dallas don't happen with this LeBron.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:10 PM   #168
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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I mean, whether it's Haslem,/Ilgauskas/Bosh, Chalmers, or Mo Williams, I don't think it matters hugely. His supporting casts in Cleveland were good supporting players. Obviously he had no one close to Wade back then and that's certainly made a huge difference, but I think if you put this LeBron on those teams with better shooting and much more mental maturity, you see a difference result a large % of the time. It wouldn't have mattered against the Spurs most likely but the losses to Orlando, Boston, and certainly Dallas don't happen with this LeBron.
well, Orlando didn't stop Lebron, his "more limited" self completely destroyed that team and it still wasn't enough, so I disagree there. Boston's D was very good, comparable to the Spurs, so that's doubtful too.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:26 PM   #169
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by poisoneye1986 View Post
the worshipers of MJ are realizing their hero is in the midst of being passed by someone else and will stoop to any level to defend their guy. They dont know what to do and feel defenseless as the they feel the pressure of the walls closing in on them. Its kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time.
spoiler: same thing will happen with labron and his fans in 20 years
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:28 PM   #170
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

at some point in the not-so-distant future there's gonna be someone like 7'1 280 who can move like lebron and shoot 3s

that person is a lock to be the goat
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:29 PM   #171
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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I mean, whether it's Haslem,/Ilgauskas/Bosh, Chalmers, or Mo Williams, I don't think it matters hugely. His supporting casts in Cleveland were good supporting players. Obviously he had no one close to Wade back then and that's certainly made a huge difference, but I think if you put this LeBron on those teams with better shooting and much more mental maturity, you see a difference result a large % of the time. It wouldn't have mattered against the Spurs most likely but the losses to Orlando, Boston, and certainly Dallas do(es)n't happen with this LeBron.
You're crazy. LeBron played INSANE against Orlando. You could take Bron's best playoff series of his career or MJ's best playoff series of his career, and it still wouldn't matter. The Magic still would have won. Bron's supporting cast just gave him nothing. Here are Bron's game-by-game stats for the series:

Game 1: 49 points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists (20/30 FG, 3/6 3P, 6/10 FT)
Game 2: 35 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists (12/23 FG, 1/3 3P, 10/12 FT), hit buzzer-beating 3 to win
Game 3: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists (11/28 FG, 1/8 3P, 18/24 FT)
Game 4: 44 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists (13/29 FG, 4/10 3P, 14/18 FT), hit 2 FTs with 0.5 seconds left to send game to OT
Game 5: 37 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists (11/24 FG, 0/2 3P , 15/19 FT)
Game 6: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists (8/20 FG, 2/8 3P, 7/11 FT)
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:30 PM   #172
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Re: NBA Playoffs Eastern Conference Finals: #1 Miami Heat vs. #3 Indiana Pacers

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nah the toddler will supplant WIGGZ not labron, and that toddler is lebron jr. lolkobe for not fathering a son, if that's not a sign of huge latent wil idk wat is
can only have one true alpha male in a family. no surprise kobe had daughters.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:31 PM   #173
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

Yeah I'll concede the Orlando series I suppose. I wasn't remembering that one correctly and he did hit one sick game-winner. Still seemed like he could have done more at the time. 25 points on 8-20 shooting in the elimination game isn't very GOATlike.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #174
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

MJ woulda had 50 points on 30 shots.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:40 PM   #175
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Re: NBA: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Discussion Containment Thread

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Yeah I'll concede the Orlando series I suppose. I wasn't remembering that one correctly and he did hit one sick game-winner. Still seemed like he could have done more at the time. 25 points on 8-20 shooting in the elimination game isn't very GOATlike.
Still, that 25/7/7 game was far and away LeBron's worst game of the entire playoffs in 2009. This year he's averaging 26/7/7. I mean he's still playing great, and what he's doing works well with this team, but it's hard to say he's playing on the same level that he was then, let alone playing better.
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