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View Poll Results: GOAT?
labron 140 30.91%
MJ (Michael or Maple) 232 51.21%
Therapist 7 1.55%
George Mikan 2 0.44%
Shaq Attaq 18 3.97%
Wilt the Stilt (100 pts yo) 12 2.65%
Timmy "Big Fundamentals" Duncan 18 3.97%
"Roger Murdock" 3 0.66%
Enchanted AIDS Wang (er, HIV+?) 8 1.77%
Larry Legend (+ HM to Bill Russell's laugh) 13 2.87%
Voters: 453. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-12-2017, 01:22 PM   #8451
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 609 View Post
btw fidstar, i'm looking your stat - assist % - and apparently the best teams this past season (spurs, warriors, rockets) have low or middling assist % rank, but ranked 1, 3, 7 in team APG

so team apg has a correlation with winning, while assist percentage appears to have NO correlation whatsoever, except that the best teams seem to NOT have high assist %... probably for the reasons that i stated:

high assist percentage occurs at the expense of other offense and isn't characteristic of the best dynasties, and therefore the best basketball.. so why would we use it to gauge the capacity of lebron or jordan's teams to play the best basketball?

otoh, high team assists occurs in addition to other types of offense (not at their expense), and IS characteristic of the best dynasties, and therefore the best basketball.. so it's a better stat to gauge the capacity of teams to play the best basketball
Yeah, the Warriors are 1st in assist percentage last year, Houston 4th and SA 9th. The Warriors were 5% better than any other team. The Warriors are the best team by a lot last year.

Not sure how that is "low or middling assist % rank"?

Would you like to rethink your argument?

Last edited by fidstar-poker; 08-12-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:28 PM   #8452
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

and the spurs did not play much team ball last year, it was the Kawhi show for the vast majority of the season
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:49 PM   #8453
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

By the way my argument isn't that assist percentage is a good way to measure good teams or dynasties, it's just better than assists per game.

Assist per game make no allowance for pace and game styles (e.g. shooting a lot of free throws). Assist percentage does.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:29 PM   #8454
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Yeah, the Warriors are 1st in assist percentage last year, Houston 4th and SA 9th. The Warriors were 5% better than any other team. The Warriors are the best team by a lot last year.

Not sure how that is "low or middling assist % rank"?

Would you like to rethink your argument?

You're making my point

The average rank for Lebron's teams in assist percentage is 16.7 for his career (12, 9, 24, 17, 22, 24, 5, 10, 16, 26, 20, 13, 16, 20)

jordan's teams ranked 6th and 10th in 1997 and 1998 - i don't see any data for before 1997, but i'm sure his teams ranked better than 16.7

So even by your standard, Lebron's teams have poor teamwork, and worse teamwork than Jordan's teams.. And by my standard (team APG), Lebron's teams have poor teamwork as well

The sub-par teamwork necessitates super-team talent to win.. And we know the poor teamwork is Lebron's fault because he lowers his teammates' assists and assist %, while increasing their assisted rate, which results in a sub-par brand of basketball that can't win like the best dynasties of all time - his teams are simply incapable of playing the best basketball

and the beat goes on
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:35 PM   #8455
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

In a world where everything changes, it's good to see some things that never change. Keep it up twog.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:39 PM   #8456
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by RebeccaTwigley View Post

In a world where everything changes, it's good to see some things that never change. Keep it up twog.

Fidstar is intent on making sure my poor teamwork argument has no holes

Indeed, he showed me that lebron's teams don't just have poor APG - they have poor assist % too, while the best dynasties of all time ranked significantly higher in both categories.

And we know the poor assist rankings is Lebron's fault because he lowers his teammates' assists and assist %, while increasing their assisted rate.. so he turns teammates into play-finsihers, which results in a sub-par brand of basketball that can't win like the best dynasties of all time - his teams are simply incapable of playing the best basketball, which entails solid APG and assist percentage rankings, as achieved by the best dynasties ever

and the beat goes on - lebron's teams have poor teamwork due to his point forward style, and therefore need super-team talent to win
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:54 PM   #8457
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:33 PM   #8458
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 609 View Post
You're making my point

The average rank for Lebron's teams in assist percentage is 16.7 for his career (12, 9, 24, 17, 22, 24, 5, 10, 16, 26, 20, 13, 16, 20)

jordan's teams ranked 6th and 10th in 1997 and 1998 - i don't see any data for before 1997, but i'm sure his teams ranked better than 16.7

So even by your standard, Lebron's teams have poor teamwork, and worse teamwork than Jordan's teams.. And by my standard (team APG), Lebron's teams have poor teamwork as well

The sub-par teamwork necessitates super-team talent to win.. And we know the poor teamwork is Lebron's fault because he lowers his teammates' assists and assist %, while increasing their assisted rate, which results in a sub-par brand of basketball that can't win like the best dynasties of all time - his teams are simply incapable of playing the best basketball

and the beat goes on
I mean I already posted this, but not surprised you forget something against MJ.

Percentage of buckets assisted

Bulls
1998 - 10th
1997 - 6th
1996 - 13th
1993 - 14th
1992 - 7th
1991 - 14th

So in their 6 championship years they rank about 11/28ish team.

So, just slightly better than average.

MJ has also shown to lower his teams number of assists (when he leaves they go up), while when LeBron goes to a team the assists go up.

Your argument has been destroyed.

Move on.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:20 AM   #8459
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Percentage of buckets assisted

Bulls
1998 - 10th
1997 - 6th
1996 - 13th
1993 - 14th
1992 - 7th
1991 - 14th

So in their 6 championship years they rank about 11/28ish team.

Your stats make my point - Lebron's teams ranked 17th in assist percentage for his career, so significantly lower than Jordan's teams (11th) and other top dynasties.. Lebron's teams also compare poorly in APG, as discussed earlier.

So Lebron's teams teams can't play the best basketball, which entails much higher assist rankings, as achieved by the best dynasties ever.. indeed, my point is confirmed by your stats - his teams apg and assist percentage rankings are poor and far lower than the top dynasties.

so your argument got destroyed, and you did it.. otoh, my argument - that Lebron's style prevented good assist rankings and teamwork - keeps getting confirmed by your stats..

btw, where did you get the stats for pre-1997?.. and one more thing - you have yet to counter the fact that lebron causes a weak brand of basketball by turning teammates into play-finishers.. he doesn't just lower teammate assists - he increases their assisted rate too.
.

Last edited by 609; 08-13-2017 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:06 AM   #8460
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post
I mean I already posted this, but not surprised you forget something against MJ.

Percentage of buckets assisted

Bulls
1998 - 10th
1997 - 6th
1996 - 13th
1993 - 14th
1992 - 7th
1991 - 14th

So in their 6 championship years they rank about 11/28ish team.

So, just slightly better than average.

MJ has also shown to lower his teams number of assists (when he leaves they go up), while when LeBron goes to a team the assists go up.

Your argument has been destroyed.

Move on.
lol that was amazing. I mean, I saw it coming the whole time. but he just walked right into it full force. I wonder if that is what it feels like to be fish going for a juicy meal only to catch the hook.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:08 AM   #8461
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by 609 View Post
Your stats make my point - Lebron's teams ranked 17th in assist percentage for his career, so significantly lower than Jordan's teams (11th) and other top dynasties.. Lebron's teams also compare poorly in APG, as discussed earlier.
you are comparing lebrons career to the 6 years that jordan titled.

how are you so bad at intellectual honesty?
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:38 AM   #8462
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

.
The best argument against Lebron that doesn't use 3/8:

His teams have sub-par teamwork, as demonstrated by their low APG and assist percentage rankings

Teams with low assist rankings can still win rings, but they can't play the best basketball or win like the top dynasties, whose basketball entailed much higher assist rankings

And the lower assist rankings of Lebron's teams are his own fault - his point guard style uses an abnormally high time of possession for a forward, so teammates have less time of possession, playmaking opportunity, and assists alongside him, while their assisted rate increases (play-finishing).

Ultimately, the reduction of teammates to play-finishers results in lower team assists and less effective basketball than the top dynasties employed, while the lesser teamwork necessitates better talent to win (aka super-teams)
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:46 AM   #8463
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread





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Old 08-13-2017, 01:48 AM   #8464
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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how are you so bad at intellectual honesty?
My sides.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:56 AM   #8465
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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My sides.
they are the same amirite?
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:43 AM   #8466
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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/thread
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:50 AM   #8467
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 609 View Post
.
The best argument against Lebron that doesn't use 3/8:

His teams have sub-par teamwork, as demonstrated by their low APG and assist percentage rankings

Teams with low assist rankings can still win rings, but they can't play the best basketball or win like the top dynasties, whose basketball entailed much higher assist rankings

And the lower assist rankings of Lebron's teams are his own fault - his point guard style uses an abnormally high time of possession for a forward, so teammates have less time of possession, playmaking opportunity, and assists alongside him, while their assisted rate increases (play-finishing).

Ultimately, the reduction of teammates to play-finishers results in lower team assists and less effective basketball than the top dynasties employed, while the lesser teamwork necessitates better talent to win (aka super-teams)
I'm not replying to the assist thing again (directly about the assists). Your argument is destroyed.

LeBron's teams are different to other championship teams because LeBron is different than any dominate player in the history of the game.

Remember when MJ was first going about winning rings? People said scoring champs couldn't win championships. But MJ did it. I think it's been done 1 time other than MJ. But I don't make a stupid argument that maybe MJ could have won more championships because he wasn't willing to cut down his scoring. If he had dropped to 28ppg in the 80s, maybe the team would have been more involved in the offense and hence won more. I don't make that argument because it is a stupid argument. He's a different player than the league has ever seen. So his team plays around his extreme talents. And they win playing with him playing that way.

Same thing goes for LeBron. He's that extreme talent that has never been seen before. So, his team plays around his extreme talents (him handling the ball at SF). And the team stats will be reflective of doing that.

If you think LeBron should not be handling the ball as much to fit into the "better championship team" category, you should also be arguing that MJ shouldn't have shot so much so his team could fall into the "better championship team" category. Both arguments are stupid.

And LeBron has been winning fwiw.

He won 3 chips in 5 years. Was probably a Kyrie injury away from seriously challenging for a 4th in that time. Only Russel has won more than 3 chips in any 5 year span (if you ignore MJ taking a year off you could say he won 4 in a 5 year period I suppose). Winning isn't that easy.

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Old 08-13-2017, 12:55 PM   #8468
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

I am still amazed that he cherrypicked jordan's 6 best years and then compared them to lebron's entire career.

609, I know you never address me after I repeatedly destroy your arguments and ideas but I would really love an answer to this one. like, did you just think no one would notice?
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:00 PM   #8469
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MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

if you're amazed at that...c'mon, you're not amazed lol

seems standard tbh
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:32 PM   #8470
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
I am still amazed that he cherrypicked jordan's 6 best years and then compared them to lebron's entire career.

609, I know you never address me after I repeatedly destroy your arguments and ideas but I would really love an answer to this one. like, did you just think no one would notice?
Even cherry picking is stupid. Yep, the REASON MJ won is because he had a team in the 10 to 15 range for percentage assists and LeBron's team was 15 to 20.

That's the reason.

WOAT argument.

And the funny thing is that it's not really LeBron's fault. It's predominately the coaches. They pick the offense to run.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:52 PM   #8471
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

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if you're amazed at that...c'mon, you're not amazed lol

seems standard tbh
ya, ya got me.

but I mean, I am still amazed tho. but ya, seems standard.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:07 PM   #8472
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

I'm not replying to the assist thing again (directly about the assists).

you can't reply because you helped me craft a rock-solid narrative with no holes:

Lebron's point-forward style turns teammates into lower-assisting play-finishers, which prevents the higher assist rankings and more effective basketball played by the top dynasties.

^^^ that's irrefutable - lebron can never play the best basketball or have the goat teamwork shown by the top dynasties, including the warriors, spurs, 90's Bulls, or 80's Celtics and Lakers.. instead, his teams are forced into a less dominant brand of basketball with inferior teamwork that can't win as much - it's a big knock on him and his game

and you helped vet this narrative, so now it's rock solid and you can't respond.. thanks bro.. i'll use it on other forums to shut-up more lebron fans.. don't worry, i'll cite you and give you credit


Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Remember when MJ was first going about winning rings? People said scoring champs couldn't win championships.

But MJ did it.

nobody knocks jordan's scoring champion style (while leading the team in assists) because it proved to be the best:

jordan's championship frequency is 6/15 - that's the best ever, since the 1960's era

otoh, lebron's frequency is only 3/14, which is less than other all-time greats, despite having equal supporting talent (or more).. therefore, his point-forward approach is subject to criticism, whereas jordan's goat championship frequency obviously isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

But I don't make a stupid argument that maybe MJ could have won more championships because he wasn't willing to cut down his scoring. If he had dropped to 28ppg in the 80s, maybe the team would have been more involved in the offense

The reason you don't make that argument is because there's no statistical evidence to support it

mj's teammates saw their stats and role increase dramatically under his watch, while lebron's teammates saw their stats and role decline alongside him


Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

If he had dropped to 28ppg in the 80s, maybe the team would have been more involved in the offense and hence won more.

again, my argument is based on statistical evidence that lebron turns teammates into lower-assisting, play-finishers.

otoh, there's no evidence that jordan's scoring hurt teammates' production or the team's because: 1) the team grew each year under jordan, along with his young teammates 2) his teammates achieved their best stats alongside him (woolridge, oakley), or very close (pippen, grant), and 3) the team never underachieved (lost when they were supposed to win)..

otoh, lebron's teams are the exact opposite because: 1) they declined on his watch (cavs peaked in 07', heat in 12'), 2) teammates achieved FAR better stats without him, and 3) his team lost several times when they were supposed to win

not surprisingly, there's evidence that lebron's style isn't optimal (teammates become lower-assisting play-finishers, which prevents the higher assist levels and teamwork used by the best dynasties).. it's intuitive


Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

you should also be arguing that MJ shouldn't have shot so much so his team could fall into the "better championship team"

mj's teams are ALREADY in the top category for championship teams - what dynasty was superior to the 90's Bulls, post 1960's? (i'll wait)

So the premise of your argument is faulty - indeed, the bulls are ALREADY in the top tier of champions - which means your argument makes no sense


Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

you should also be arguing that MJ shouldn't have shot so much

this is one of the dumbest arguments against jordan, because jordan had better EFFICIENCY than lebron:

both players have 57% true shooting in the playoffs, but shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency (ortg), where jordan's is higher.

so that's all any fan can ask of their favorite player - shoot more, with better efficiency - and that's what Jordan did.. so stop making this dumb argument that perhaps jordan could've shot less - that would be stupid considering his efficiency level, which was superior to lebron's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fidstar-poker View Post

Only Russel has won more than 3 chips in any 5 year span

what a joke - lebron has 3 rings thru 14 seasons, which is garbage compared to jordan's 6 rings thru 14 seasons

jordan's championship frequency is goat post 1960's - so he stands alone, whereas lebron ranks down there with other greats
.

Last edited by 609; 08-13-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:24 PM   #8473
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

argument shifter!
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:28 PM   #8474
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Quote:
this is one of the dumbest arguments against jordan
this is how everyone with an IQ above a fork feels about your lebron assist crap
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:37 PM   #8475
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Re: MJ vs. Labron GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread

Lebron's career playoff TS% is 57.4% while MJ's is 56.8%.....I like how rounding benefits Jordan too. Lebron's regular season TS% numbers are better too albeit at lower volume: 58.4% to 56.9%.
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