i don't know where you got the 50% figure from - most champions rank in the top 10 for assists

but obviously, teams can still win with sub-par assists and teamwork if they have great talent - examples of this include lebron's big 3 teams, the celtics big 4 teams, the shaq/kobe duo, and also the bad boys super-team (who also revolutionized defense)..

but nearly every other champion in the last 30 years ranked in the top 10 for assists.


teams that lack great teamwork might win a few rings based on talent, but they also lose to lesser-talented teams who offset the talent deficit with better teamwork (i.e. detroit in 04' and mavs in 11')..

otoh, jordan's teams weren't susceptible to being upset by teams with better teamwork, because his team had the best teamwork in the league (similar to the spurs or warriors)

ultimately, why can't lebron's teams have great teamwork like spurs/warriors/bulls, so they aren't susceptible to being upset by lesser talented teams?.. the dream team talent is there to have great teamwork, but there's something holding them back... hmmmm... wonder what it is.............

oh, i got it - i see the problem here looking at the stats.. apparently, Lebron's point guard style utilizes an abnormally high time of possession for a forward, which reduces his teammates' time of possession and playmaking opportunity - specifically, every teammate saw their assists decline alongside Lebron, so the TEAM had low assist rankings/teamwork and needed super-team talent to win


Lebron was granted super-teams that could win right away

How is that harder than waiting years for a team to develop into contenders?

You act like maturing into a championship team is automatic - it isn't - it takes time and perseverance, which is why it's harder than being granted super-teams that can compete for rings right away


The Bulls still won the championship in 1998 when Pippen was injured and contributing less, because they had great teamwork to offset the loss in talent.

Otoh, Lebron's teams collapse when there's a reduction in talent because his teams are based on talent, not teamwork

I wasnt talking about that.

I was talking about long term success. so was the post I quoted.

its a fact that a group of players is not able to have long term success unless they stay together for a long time.

here, Ill give you another hint, since clearly logic is not you strong suit. long term success is not necessary for short term success.

seriously, this post is hilarious. we are talking about long term success.

and you come at me with the most short term success possible. winning in the very first year.

like wtf? how are you so bad at this.

I cant stop thinking about this. like, I went to do something else and this just kept gnawing at me. how can someone possibly be so completely devoid of logic and analytic ability?

my statement was the equivalent of 1=1. and you still try to refute it. truly amazing.

and really scary that we are the same species. human race is undoubtedly doomed.

right, but pippen/grant is pretty thin talent for a 3-peat dynasty team


since when do the 2011 mavs = 80's lakers/celtics

most all-time greats would've beaten that mavs team, regardless of the year - there's no way around that - lebron averaged 17 ppg and was scared as ****.. lol, it still makes me laugh


wade and mj would fit like a glove

wade would play on-ball and jordan off-ball, like he normally did anyway..

ultimately, jordan had elite off-ball skill, so he could realize synergies with wade, whereas lebron can't play off-ball, so they clashed.. it's pretty simple.


do you enjoy making things up?...

who guarded HOF drexler?

who guarded HOF miller?

who guarded HOF magic for most of the series?

so what the hell are you talking about?

it's a simple fact that jordan was assigned the other team's best perimeter player, not pippen..

the only exception is when penny destroyed pippen for 25 ppg on 48% in 96 ecf, while doing nothing the times jordan guarded him (1 point on 1-5 fg with 3 turnovers, all possessions shown here)

btw, wade was 2nd team all-defense and 1st team all-nba in 2010 before joining lebron.. so lebron DID have an all-pro defender on the wing - not that it matters in this comparison, because jordan guarded the opponent's best perimeter player, not pippen.. hope that helps


smh... rookie pippen was a bench player who averaged 7 ppg

so there was no "mj/pippen" in 1988... or 1989 for that matter.. it was just MJ and the "Jordannaires" as Bill Laimbeer called his scrub supporting cast

infact, Laimbeer said of Pippen: "We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s


so whenever you think that lebron did more with less, understand that jordan's casts were weaker than lebron's thru 1989 - nonetheless, jordan's 1989 run is the biggest carry-job and overachievement in history... lebron's 2007 run is a smaller overachievement, as the stats clearly show

To be fair you were collateral damage. It just happened that the post count of you and capone0 added up to a round figure. On a word-per-post basis I assume he has you crushed.

Like, capone still posting at this fury in this thread is unreal

He has to be at 100+ life hours on this thread alone by now between posting and reading and yelling and contemplating

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG C-VIGGITY <3 <3 <3

this whole thread is a ruse to bring fidstar into TZ, quality poster

I see so you are saying the lakers did not have long term success after magic join the lakers and won the NBA title ?
Ok....
Everything you said after seem you were talking about yourself !

Point was magic join the lakers and won right there.
After , they still had long term success .

So where was the needed of long term playing together you advocate for ?
See... before speaking about others look at yourself.

Talent is key, not long term **** your talking about...

it's a solid proxy for teamwork, better than anyone else has come up with itt


i don't know if assists are an "indicator", but most championship teams have top 10 assist rankings, except a few teams with great talent

so i'll say the same thing that i said originally: championship teams tend to rank highly in assists and great teamwork

this is true - i don't know what else to say



of course he was - bosh and wade are HOF's and were all-nba before joining lebron

lebron joined arguably the best pf and sg in the league - how can any situation be better than that?


jordan dragged his team more

thru 1989, jordan had worse casts than ANY cast lebron had in his career

and jordan did more with his weaker casts - see his 1989 playoff run, which was a bigger overachievement than lebron's 2007 run, as the stats clearly show


not as amazing as jordan's - jordan has higher career PER and ws/48

ultimately, jordan averages 5 more points in the playoffs with better efficiency, and only 1 less assist (offset by fewer turnovers)

obviously, lebron would be a FAR more dominant player if he averaged 5 more ppg with better efficiency

(both guys shoot 57% TS in playoffs, but jordan's per possession efficiency is higher... his ortg)


c'mon bro, don't bring up clutch performances - lebron isn't even in the top 100 in that category

whereas jordan is #1...


they argued against points that i didn't make

i.e. there's many teams that won rings without leading league in assists, so therefore ur wrong..

that was fidstar's counter to my point that lebron teams underachieve their talent due to his reduction of team assists and teamwork


The 2013 Heat had more talent than the 2013 Spurs.. that's obvious

and kyrie/love > klay/draymond

the warriors' won 73 games so people assumed they had better talent - but they forgot about TEAMWORK - the warriors won more games because their teamwork was vastly superior to the cavs, not their talent
.

championship teams tend to be top 10 in most stats, there's only 30 teams in the league

too bad lebron's teams average a 15 ranking in assists for his career

lesser teamwork prevents lebron's teams from being as good as they could be

ultimately, why can't lebron's teams have great teamwork like spurs/warriors/bulls, so his teams are BETTER like those teams were?.. the dream team talent is there to have great teamwork, but there's something holding them back... hmmmm... wonder what it is.............

oh, i got it - i see the problem here looking at the stats.. apparently, Lebron's point guard style utilizes an abnormally high time of possession for a forward, which reduces his teammates' time of possession and playmaking opportunity - specifically, every teammate saw their assists decline alongside Lebron, so the TEAM had low assist rankings/teamwork and needed super-team talent to win

Agree that team hopping reflects poorly on Lebron's legacy. No other top 5 all time players did that(possibly Shaq if you consider him top 5 and that hurt his legacy as well). Jabaar was traded but he didn't call up Worthy and Magic saying "Let's make a super team."

I know the argument is "But Cleveland didn't enough help for him when he left." Look at Dirk, he did more with less help than any great player ever. He didn't run to San Antonio or the Lakers to make a super team he played with what they had and eventually won a championship.

maybe because mark cuban is the owner and would give his left testicle to keep dirk happy.

no dude. I am saying to achieve long term success, you must play together for the long term.

tell me how it is possible to have long term success in the short term?

its in the damn term. long term.

so all this crap about lebron not being able to achieve long term success on his teams is idiotic bc he was never in that position. if he had been with wade for his entire career, then he would have won a bunch more titles. if he was able to be with wade for the long term, then they absolutely would have achieved long term success.

as it was, he won 2 titles in 4 years which is pretty damn good. esp considering they beat one of the best all time teams in the spurs. proly woulda beaten them twice if wade didnt decline hard.

its pretty amazing that in a thread full of complete idiocy with thousands of posts you are still able to outdo yourself and find a way to say the most idiotic and wrong thing.

have you actually watched the nba and lebron james?

I actually doubt it if you actually believe this. if so, you missed the game 6 vs the celtics. the 4th qtr vs the spurs. all 3 of the final games in 2016. 2015 game winner vs the bulls. 2009 game winning 3 vs the magic. game 6 and 7 vs the spurs.

theres a ton more too.

I actually feel sorry for you that you cant appreciate such amazing performances bc for some reason you are blinded by hatred. truly pathetic. like, why even follow the nba if you are gonna deny such performances?

I love how every team the Lebronze played against is referred to as the best of all time. Mark Cuban probably did everything for Dirk since dirk wasn't a passive aggressive loser. If wade would have played his whole career w Lebronze he would probably have one less title.

Pretty sure only the warriors are and the stats back that's up. The spurs have been very good but hardly goatish. With wade playing like aids on both o and d, they had no shot in the rematch.

Yeah totally. Wade went to 4 straight and won 2 with Lebron while Wades ability was falling apart, they probably would have went like 0-6 the years prior with both in their primes.

You just prove you are wrong with lebron....
How many NBA title with different team and reaching the NBA final did lebron do?
Where is the long term when he just keep changing team and will again after next season ....?

Long term means ****, talent means a lot more ...

not every team. but certainly the warriors. I mean, they won 73 games the year after winning a title in an extremely tough conference.

if you check the $tat$ on the spurs and look at their roster then its pretty apparent that they are on the all-time great level.

oh ya and cant forget the celtics with garnett, allen, and pierce.

LOL i hope so !
If you want lebron to be the goat, doing less with better players would not workout for lebron to be the goat .
Unless you would take pippen over wade lol .....

That is the point all along, MJ probably had the weakest help has his number 2 and number 3 but still was able to achieve greatness and create a dynasty !

Ps: you are saying like lebron did not achieve long term success despise he did not played long term with the same player.

Maybe the competition was poor then. I don't agree that pippen was weak, his greatest value d, isn't properly measured or valued.

awesome. we agree. so nice that you have disavowed all that garbage about lebron not being able to win championships long term.

hopefully you agree that if by some chance lebron and wade ended up together early in their careers then they certainly would have achieved amazing long term success.

Can you read ?
Please tell me where I said lebron did not have long term success ?
I was the one advocating long term success is not needed to play with the same individuals long term and lebron proved it.
Talent is what is needed !