MJ has the best all time stats; so by definition a stat whore but it's cool when he does it right? Most of those decreases are one to two assists per game; so when you add a guy who averages 7 apg I'd assume others assists would drop. Likewise, players scoring averages typically went down when playing with MJ. There is only one ball guys.

Not to mention LeBron has a career AST% of 35 while Jordan's is 25

Almost like he passes more often or something

Amare Stoudemire DOUBLED his AST% from 6.6 in 6 seasons with Steve Nash to 13.2% in his first season with the Knicks.

Steve Nash was a TEAMMATE KILLER who made Amare WORSE. He increased his AST% by 100% after leaving known stat whore and ballhog Steve Nash.

nah, you're missing the statistical reality:

Lebron scores like a point guard: so that means he scores mostly ON HIS OWN via live dribble, and therefore unassisted by teammates, while using a high time of possession..

this point guard style (low assisted rate, high time of possession) is inherently suboptimal when it comes from the forward position: it adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

since teammates have less time with the ball and less opportunity to assist, they become play-finishers - this fosters a weaker, more predictable brand of basketball that gets outplayed by teams with equal or less talent, like in 2009 ecf, 2011 finals and 2014 finals.. see a detailed, statistical breakdown of how lebron-ball works here
.

except its optimal when that said point guard is 6'9 and can exploit every PNR there is. Also amazing when team has some great 3point shooters, so you want the ball in the hands of the guy who has the best pass and also the highest bball IQ.

except its not weaker when it beats better brands? I have no idea what your point is.

teams can win with sub-par teamwork if they have enough talent, like a super team.

you're forgetting that teammates get less assists alongside lebron, so the TEAM always ranks low in assists (14.7 average ranking for lebron's career).. since his teams have lower assists and teamwork, they need excessive supporting talent to win (aka team-hopping).

the reality is that lebron loses to Finals teams/franchises whose core players, coaches and management stuck together and developed elite teamwork and know-how.

unfortunately, lebron can never have a team like that because he team-hopped!!.. he team-hopped twice to form ready-made super teams with enough talent to avoid needing to develop great teamwork!

well lebron's teams got straight out of the dumpster so they didn't draft in the lottery for a bunch of years.

i know the league was smaller but Jordan had the following 1st round picks in his first 5 years in the league. The Cavs didn't draft Pippen/Grant/Kukoc or equivalents. Cavs missed the ball on a number of picks and then got too good where they were picking in the end of the 1st round after a few seasons of Bron.

Obvious strategy was to tank for a few years with Bron and get more top picks and then bloom but the Cavs tried a win now strat and while they did well it was clearly not playoff/finals talent on the team. He had solid squads but Lakers/Boston/Spurs were clearly better playoff squads where the Cavs had little shot at winning against.

There were only 20 teams when jordan came into the league, and only 4 teams in the entire league missed the playoffs - this meant that many horrible teams had no business in the playoffs, including jordan's bulls..

like, imagine if lebron's cavs make playoffs in 04 - they get swept by champion pistons just like jordans bulls vs 86' celtics.. except i bet lebron doesnt average 44/6/6 and break the single-game record like jordan did..

Essentially, i think there's a gross misperception regarding just how weak jordan's cast was relative to his competition, and how decent lebron's was relative to his..

here's the correct perception: rookie Jordan entered the league on a Sixers-level roster in a tough conference like the current West, so 44 ppg on 51% wasn't enough to win 1st Round.. Otoh, rookie Lebron entered the league with an all-star Center teammate in perhaps the weakest East ever, so 25 ppg on 45% won ecf (and 24 ppg on 43% in ecsf).
.

Well, the cavs weren't 8th and 7th seed for a few seasons. lol at grossly exaggerating and misrepresenting; that's literally all you do. Cavs won 50 games and were 4th seed so they didn't have to play the 64 win pistons in the first round. Again you ignore why the bulls were getting swept in the first round. His first year in the playoffs the team won 38 games and were 7th seed. Likewise 8th seed in the next year and 8th the year after. You don't play better teams in the first round if you have a better record. In many of the seasons where the bulls were struggling, 50 wins would have gotten you 4th or 5th seed and a clearer path to the finals.

Weakest east ever was the early 2000s where the nets and sixers were good. This was the era where Detroit was very good and Boston eventually emerged after they formed the big 4.

team has less asists, but the team litterally becomes a contender/fav for the title, so I dont think assist numbers means jack when he is getting the best out of his team...

LeBron joins Cavs team that won 17 games, they win 35 the next season.

MJ joins 27 win Bulls, they win 38.

MJ cast So Bad Though

but BIG Z SO GOOD and LARRY HUGHES was the GOAT 3rd option till Lebron ruined him.

ya its hilarious. bosh stats dropped. but he went from never making the playoffs to winning 2 titles. likewise love.

thats getting a lot out of your teammates.

bosh made the playoffs with TOR but never won a series.

Also people thinking Bosh was just a 3 point shooter for the Heat is off; he averaged .3 and then .6 3 point attempts a game his first 2 seasons; 1.1 his 2nd and 3.3 his last. So he was hardly a 3 point specialist although he clearly had a good 3 point shot for a PF or C.

yup. 3rd best center in the east. and elite rim protector. jordan could never be so lucky.

has 609 seen drew goodens bref page yet?

at 23 he averaged 14.4 and 9.2 rb per game. talk about the GOAT 4th option of all time.

too bad lebron ruined him.

So when you join three top 20 players together like bron wade bosh they become title favs, shocking! Or when you join three top 30 players together you become title contenders, again shocking! Btw which one out of bosh, wade, Kyrie and love did bron get the best out of?

Big Z did average 14/10 during the finals run of 2006 (18 per and 55% TS%) which isn't bad). Z did also average 7/10 in the finals that season.....Shaq in his prime level production and 12/9 in the CF.

Bosh would likely have 0 titles if he stayed in Toronto--isn't 2 better than 0?

Wade would have likely had 0 more titles if Bron didn't come. Wade was great for the first 3 seasons with Bron and not good for the last one. I don't see how 2 titles and 4 finals appearances in 4 years is a bad thing especially since they competed for a title year 1 with a team that literally just formed over night.

Love and Kyrie likely would have no rings and no finals appearances if not for Bron. Kyrie's stats have been pretty similar or slightly better than his ones in the pre-Bron era. Love's have slid but he has become the 3rd option. Love has a ~19.5 PER and 57% TS% in his 3 years with Cleveland during the regular season vs 25 PER and 58% TS% in his 3 great years in Minnesota during the regular season.

What else is Lebron supposed to do? He's been unfortunate the Warriors formed when he joined the Cavs and the Spurs were good in their 3 finals matches. Duncan/Pop has 1 finals blemish and it's due to Bron and Warriors have 1 and it's due to Lebron. I guess Lebron should pray for worse finals opponents.

The only Lebron mistake finals is the Mavs one where Wade was definitely better than Bron for the series.

you don't get it - lebron missed the playoffs for 2 straight years in 04' and 05', despite having an all-star center teammate.. that's far worse than MAKING the playoffs like jordan did

more importantly, lebron WOULD'VE MADE the 04' playoffs if there were less teams like the 80's, where nearly every team made it (16 of 20 teams).. a lot of horrible teams like lebron's 04' cavs and jordan's 86' bulls make it when there's less teams.

and surely lebron's 04' cavs would've gotten swept by champion pistons in 1st round just like jordans bulls vs 86' celtics.. except i bet lebron doesnt average 44/6/6 and break the single-game record like jordan did.

Bron is 1/10 when he's not on the wade/bosh 3 top 20 2 top 5 super team. Sounds like he needs them just as much as they need him.

I do get it.

Jordan made the playoffs with 30 wins.

Lebron missed the playoffs with 35 and 42 wins.

Lebron also came right out of HS; Jordan had 3 years in college to at least play against solid competition.

Lebron had an all-star teammate for 1 of those years and this all-star wasn't that great. You're acting like he was Shaq. He was a 15/10 guy who wasn't that dominant on D.

So yes, Lebron would have lost in the first round. What's your point? Lebron and Jordan have both lost in the 2nd round and CF. And I guess it's harder to get into the playoffs now then it was then. Again it doesn't really help your argument very much. Again we are comparing 2 different eras. You're hell bent in proving how much MJ's team sucked and how great Lebron's teammates were which is hilarious. It's really hard to compare across eras, leagues and positions. You keep expecting and making silly points that Lebron should and has to score just as much as MJ to keep up the jones but he doesn't. There not the same player; they don't play the same position. MJ is CLEARLY a better scorer than Jordan. Lebron is clearly a better passer than Jordan both due to his willing nature and his vision. MJ was a very good passer as well but not nearly as good as Lebron.

Both players played on different teams with different roles and team constructions yet I have to fit Lebron into the MJ box to hit all of your conditions for greatness which is not only stupid it is pointless.

MJ is even worse without Pippen and Phil. Again I will agree that Lebron needed Wade/Bosh much like MJ needed Pippen. It's a team game and you need great teams, in fact stacked teams to win NBA titles.

the expectation was "not 5, not 6, not 7", so 2/4 was NOT getting the best out of the team

2/4 is a big underachievement for three guys with top 5 PER's

magic, mchale and jordan would commit suicide if they only went 2/4 together, for example..


you're lying when you claim that lebron turned the heat and cavs around by himself

in both of his team-hops, he teamed up with arguably the best pf in the game..

these guys were superstar #1 options with better stats than pippen ever had, and they sacrificed those stats to be 3rd option in lebron-ball..

lebron's teams have unbelievable stackedness - he's the only guy with a 10-time all-star as a 3rd option.. it's insane