You really must have ***** for brains and you make it hard to be on the MJ side with awful reasoning skills like you have shown, you sound like the dipsht at a bar that just spews stupid sht while people are just begging to get their drink so they can be on their way.

You think LBJ could have won in 2015 without Kyrie and Love? Really know your stuff.

You think if LBJ played better vs the Spurs in 2014 they would have won the series instead of losing in 5?

I don't think you even watched those games

You are the dipsht that buys me drinks at the bar so you can be around my women.

I didn't say anything about kyrie or love.

And yes that's my opinion.

Btw I won a shtload of money on that spurs series so you don't have to buy my beer anymore, get your own womenz.

you're quibbling about whether the bulls were "big" underdogs or just regular underdogs, which avoids addressing the point being made:

jordan never lost as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - he only lost as an underdog (the degree to which can be debated)..

otoh, lebron lost as favorite at least twice (09 and 11'), and lost by record amount when it was 50/50 in 2014..

Your source for it being 50/50 is a article by some rando guy on a rando website which pretty much asks a bunch of barkleys what they think. Nice one bro.

Never lost when he had the best team is the most standard thing ever. Which is why the biggest knock on LeBron is 2011. However winning 2016 is a pretty big way to rectify that.

I take LeBron for his peak probably being longer than Jordan's career, while also maintaining the height.

The words you use make it sounds like MJ only lost when he was 100 to 1, which is not true.

Not one person is denying MJ always winning as a favorite is a huge plus in his column.

I wrote that exact same thing previously.

by definition of being #1 options, scoring is the most important thing that lebron and jordan do.. so 22 ppg on 38% is sub-par regardless of reb and ast numbers..

jordan loses everytime with those numbers - he needed to lead his team in scoring by an average margin of 15 ppg in each playoff series.. accordingly, garbage like bron's 22 ppg would never fly

btw, the bulls needed jordan to carry the goat scoring load AND lead the team in passing - jordan led the bulls in assists for most playoff runs, and assisted on the highest proportion of bulls field goals during both 3-peats (jordan's assist percentage in 91-93' playoffs was 31.1% versus pippen's 22.3%, and it was 22.3% to pippen's 22.0% in 96-98' playoffs


because he averaged 31 ppg on 46% thru 3 games to get the bulls a 3-1 lead

then he relaxed

he also didnt let his man score 9 ppg above their normal average and win fmvp


dennis rodman wasnt an all-star alongside jordan and hadn't been an allstar since 1992..

pippen was the only current all-star that jordan played with in his entire career, whereas lebron played with 6 different all-stars, and played with 2 all-star teammates every year since 2011 (edit: love missed asg in 15' and 16')


kukoc averaged 13 ppg with poor defense, and the other players you mentioned were single-digit guys that that every team has some form of.. i.e. kerr was a good floor-spreader, but every team has a solid shooter somewhere on the bench, and they probably play better D

obviously, bit bench players that every team possesses are not the factors that make a team "super".. we all know that it's the "super" in "superstars" that makes a super-team.. and lebron simply played with more superstars and all-stars - 4 superstars and 2 all-stars to be exact
.

Rodman made all NBA 3rd team the year before he got there for the Spurs and was first team all NBA D his first year for the Bulls; he rebounded a ton and was still a great defender despite limited O.

Maybe the reason Grant and Armstrong made all-star teams without Jordan had to do with Jordan not sharing enough. Grant was also all NBA D 4 straight years.

So your insinuating the worst Jordan years by his own stats, the Bulls who won 72 games was just due to Jordan and Pippen's talent. When you win the 2nd most games in NBA history; I'm pretty sure your team is pretty super.

Something isn't adding up; the most dominant Jordan years are the ones where he didn't win a title and Pippen was still maturing. But when the Bulls finally had a great squad around him, Jordan won titles and when his stats starting fading during the 2nd 3 peat; they were dominant especially the first 2 titles years of that 3 peat. But it's all Jordan's doings. I get it now.

4th option lebron led team averaged 11 on 52% but I can take yourt shifty approach and create narrative and say he average 2 points on 10% through 2 games (SMIFF) and 9 on 41% (allen)

so yeah, 13ppg kukoc is a pretty important in the scheme of things. and the most important thing, jordan was actually able to go to the bench and not have -16 in 22 seconds.

Any talent advantage the bulls had is because of jordan himself - take away jordan and payton, and the sonics have superior talent to the bulls

the sonics had a legit big 3 of all-stars in their prime.. and guys like mcmillan hawkins, and perkins were elite role players - only kukoc compares

i encourage you to compare the 96' RS, PO, and Finals stats of pippen and kemp, or see them here


he played great to get his team a 3-0 lead, before relaxing - those are facts


sure it does, because the celtics were far more talented than the bulls, so jordan's blowout loss can be chalked up to that.

otoh, the heat didn't have worse talent than the 2014 Spurs, so their record margin of defeat reflected the difference in teamwork between the 2 teams

so lebron's stats were achieved while his team had the worst teamwork ever in a finals.. therefore, his stats can be criticized as "empty", and his style of play as self-serving

jordan plays bad, its relaxing. right.

Jordan had one good game against the Knicks in 93. The best team in the Eastern Conference that year. Was pretty **** in the other 5 games. Averaged 27ppg @ 35% shooting in the other 5 games. Yet the Bulls won 3 of those 5 games.

That Knicks team was (I would say) the best ever team the Bulls played in the Eastern Conference. And that Bulls team was probably the worst of the 6 championship teams.

So, MJ played bad and the Bulls won. Sort of destroys your argument that Jordan had to play well for them to win. I mean this was the best team they played on the way to the Finals and they won without him playing well. Makes you think the Bulls would have been just fine if he didn't play well against a bunch of other teams.


MJ did lead the team in assists a bunch. That's pretty cool. You should probably stop talking about passing though as LeBron has MJ covered quite comfortably in that area. Even MJ fans admit that. You should just keep arguing that only scoring matters.

GOAT player relaxing in the Finals. Doesn't sound GOATlike to me...

You are correct. He was All-NBA 1st team defense, led the league in rebounds, and one season removed from being All NBA second team. All honors better than being an All-Star.

Were you the dude arguing earlier about LeBron not making his team mates better? Maybe not. But your argument here is showing maybe Jordan isn't. I mean Rodman was an All NBA 2nd team player the season before he got to Chicago. Armstrong and Grant were All Stars the season after he left. Charles Oakley was an All Star after he left the Bulls.

My response was to you taking about you harping on about how great Ray Allen was, and then you basically destroy your own argument with this reply. Ray wasn't any good at defense. Ray was a single-digit guy. Solid. Kukoc in 96 was a better player than Allen in 2014.

Also your comment about Kerr being a good floor-spreader (but every team had solid shooters), is under playing that Kerr was the best floor spreader in that era. Dude shot better than 50% from 3s for two consecutive seasons.

Jordan and Grant weren't all stars together though. Looks like Jordan was not only making his teammates better but holding them back at the same time.

You can't just say take Jordan and Payton away from a team and compare. They aren't equivalent talents.

Bulls were a lot better than the Sonics. They won a game MJ shot 5/19 and had 5 TOs. They won it by double figures!

Yeah... relaxing as an excuse is not "a fact". He played ****. Deal with it.



A blow out is a blow out. Stop trying to compare how an 8th seed competed with a 1 seed vs a Final 30 years apart, with both series including many blow outs. It's embarrassing. No one is arguing that MJ wasn't great in that series. And saying that LeBron was remarkably bad is 100% wrong.

oops. my bad. post edited.

except jordan led the bulls in passing

he led the bulls in assists for most playoff runs, and assisted on the highest proportion of bulls field goals during both 3-peats (jordan's assist percentage in 91-93' playoffs was 31.1% versus pippen's 22.3%, and it was 22.3% to pippen's 22.0% in 96-98' playoffs


rodman was still great defender but he had fallen off a lot overall

he averaged 4/8 for entire 97' playoffs and wasn't even starter in 98' playoffs (and 4/8 in 98' finals)..

also, rodman didn't make any all-defensive teams in 97' or 98


and goat teamwork, which helped role players to play to full capacity..

infact, role players generally can't play well or to full capacity without good teamwork

and also goat defense

See this is the issue you DOG Lebron for his passing ability and now praise Jordan for his. It has little to do with passing, AS games as you indicated have a lot to do with points scored and when you have Jordan and his 30 points per game; its tough for more than 1 or 2 players to make the all-star team. Both Armstrong and Grant made all-star teams the year Jordan sat entirely. Both probably weren't that great for all-stars; but likely let in due to the 3 titles and celebrating their help in the 3 peat.

So GOAT teamwork doesn't mean GOAT team or super team. Seems like they were a super team, you just don't want to admit it. Teams don't win 72 games by accident bro.

jordan was the star of game 6..

he led the bulls with 22/9/7, while holding held Hawkins to 4 points, or 12 points below his average.. This is significant because the Bulls WON by 12 and everyone else let their man go off - Schrempf destroyed Pippen for 23 points on 59%.. Payton destroyed Harper for 21 points on 70%.. and Kemp destroyed Rodman for 18/10 on 47%..

So Jordan holding down Hawkins was the difference - contrast that with Lebron letting his man get FMVP 3 times, including a 7 ppg role player that got nearly 10 points above his average.

Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


Rebounds/Assists cancel out.. So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%:



2nd three-peat Jordan = Prime Kobe:

JORDAN 1996-1998 REG SEASON:. 29.6 ppg.. 48.2% fg.. 2 MVP
BRYANT 2008-2010 REG SEASON:. 27.4 ppg.. 46.1% fg.. 1 MVP


JORDAN 1996-1998 PLAYOFFS:. 31.4 ppg.. 45.9% fg
BRYANT 2008-2010 PLAYOFFS:. 29.8 ppg.. 46.4% fg


JORDAN 1996-1998 FINALS:. 31.1 ppg.. 43.4% fg.. 3 championships.. 3 FMVP's
BRYANT 2008-2010 FINALS:. 29.2 ppg.. 41.3% fg.. 2 championships.. 2 FMVP's

The stats are similar, except Jordan scored a far higher proportion of his team's points (carried a bigger load)

............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4 <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1

KOBE 2008....... 31.8..... 36.8..... 33.9..... 41.5...... 30.4...... 32.1
KOBE 2009....... 32.6..... 40.5..... 34.3..... 35.8...... 36.2...... 34.4
KOBE 2010....... 32.2..... 37.8..... 33.9..... 38.4...... 36.8...... 37.6

The reason Jordan had to carry a bigger burden is because prime Pau Gasol was FAR more impactful than the older Pippen, who averaged an abysmal 17 ppg on 40.8% in 1996-1998 playoffs.

So how good was PRIME Jordan? Based on how his prime stats destroy his old man stats shown above, he was waaaaaay better than 35-year old Jordan/prime Kobe... If someone is waaaay better than prime Kobe, that's the GOAT... Remember, Kobe was considered better than Lebron during that time (08-10')

0/7 in the 4th quarter with 3 turnovers. nice star

only in twogs mind is prime kobe 08/10 and Shaq 00/02

also love the FT% add.

17ppg on 40% is abysmal, but 22pg on 35% is amazing. gotcha.

Iguodala also went from a 27 per minute game player to 37 minutes per game.

I just want to get this right. When MJ does this he's a great team mate, making his team better etc etc, but when LeBron averages 35% for his career and 32% in the 2014 playoffs he's not a great team mate, not making his team better etc etc.

I'm just a bit confused.

No he wasn't. Rodman was the star of that game and it wasn't even close.

11 offensive rebounds (made a lot easier with MJ bricking 3 in every 4 shots to be fair).

So a guy getting 18/10 is destroying someone?

If you think MJ played well when he shoots 26% with 5 TOs, I don't know what to say.

And, as we've already discussed Cleveland's plan was to let Iggy shoot. They were willing to let Iggy shoot wide open shots over letting Steph and Klay shoot. The plan didn't work.

mj led in passing WHILE carrying the goat scoring load (led team in scoring by an average margin of 15 ppg in each playoff series)

compare to lebron, who barely leads kyrie in scoring.. and wade, who led heat in ppg for 11' playoffs..

so lebron's lighter scoring load makes his team-leading passing less impressive than mj's team-leading passing


pippen and grant's high's alongside jordan (92') are essentially the same as their highs without him (94')

so they played at full capacity alongside jordan.. now run the same exercise for lebron's teammates, rofl

also, guys like grant and armstrong were 1-time all-stars similar to korver, but obviously nothing like superstars and perennial all-stars wade/kyrie/bosh/love.. oh, and pippen..

I get it, we just need to wade through your inconsistent bull****. Lebron just needs to carry the GOAT LOAD, not the 2nd most load in the NBA finals